spicoli

Also- why is it that you and many others feel the need to exclude ALL other possibilities of a solution other than obamacare? obamas answer to healthcare isn't the ONLY thing that will save us. Save the melodrama. Everyone won't die if that plan doesn't go through.

__________________
The only thing that limits human beings is what we think we know. -me

stoneric

A lot will go broke.

JcP

In what way? Obama's proposed "heathcare marketplace" might include a government option, but it is not forcing you to choose that. If you like your current insurance, you will not be forced to change it.
Requiring people to HAVE health insurance removes your "invisible" payment of people who choose to not have health insurance and mooch off the system. It's the same reason everyone is forced to have car insurance.
You're "paying" for the uninsured anyway. The price you pay to do so would go down tremendously if the "emergency-room" healthcare model for the uninsured was replaced with a real program that allows for early detection, doctor visits to keep them from getting super-sick, and the expense of an emergency room visit/treatment.

This is part of his plan, unless I am mistaken? This also will only work if companies are not in collusion with one another, and monopoly laws are put in place to prevent the wal-martification of the health care industry. If competition is allowed to flourish, that's great! And I think a public OPTION is a great way to insure that private institutions do not run or dictate the price. I'll save the "public/private college" example explaination, as I'm sure you've heard it.
again, this is not the "single payer" option proposed by the hard-line liberals (although I happen to agree with it). You do have a choice and do not have to be in the "government run" program.
I highly doubt the president is not in favor of curing disease...I think you're reading too much into that, imho.
Agreed. Which is why we need reform. Is Obama's plan perfect? I dunno. But what we have now is an atrocity. I say give it a shot. If it's a failure, it can be reformed in the future. But I think its basic premise is a good idea, and one that's worth an attempt.

__________________

Just look out around us, people fightin their wars...
They think they'll be happy when they've settled their scores...
Let's lay down our weapons
and hold us apart
be still for just a minute
try to open our hearts
MORE LOVE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rev It's not what you see, it's that you're looking.

spicoli

Even if I 'elect' not to take it I still have to pay for those who can't! Something like $2,000-$3,000 a year. Does that sound like an option? Not to me.

__________________
The only thing that limits human beings is what we think we know. -me

JcP

I'm not following you. Your taxes already pay for their usage of emergency rooms and the like through regular state and federal budgets.
That money will be lessened, and your taxes will then be used directly for more pre-emptive and compassionate care.

I'm probably just misunderstanding you. can you be a little clearer as to how the government option (combined with multiple private insurance options) is different and/or worse than the current model?

__________________

Just look out around us, people fightin their wars...
They think they'll be happy when they've settled their scores...
Let's lay down our weapons
and hold us apart
be still for just a minute
try to open our hearts
MORE LOVE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rev It's not what you see, it's that you're looking.

spicoli

okay. i have a theory of what will happen should this plan be passed through congress.
with a govt option, our already high (private) insurance rates will go yet higher, due to small business owners who can't afford insure their employees, thereby negating a choice for those people. the govt plan will be their only option, because there is NO WAY the average american family can afford private health insurance, especially in this economy. and being that the almighty dollar is the bottom line when it comes to business, large businesses also imo, will go the govt route if it's cheaper.
don't get me wrong, i know this current system is more than flawed but this idea that the government needs to swoop in and 'save the day,' to me is very dangerous. we are not incompetent human beings, and standing up to the insurance companies seems to me far more productive than surrendering our power of choice to the govt.
hope i stayed on topic...lol

__________________
The only thing that limits human beings is what we think we know. -me

verklingen

many small business owners cannot afford to insure their employees as things are now. small business is the lifeblood of our economy, but many people shy away from working for smaller companies because they want the confidence of an insurance plan backed up by large corporations rather than seeking insurance on their own. this makes it harder for small businesses to find and hold on to employees. a public option would quell this inequity and level the employment playing field. it would only enhance the strength of america's small business industry.

what choice is being negated here? do you mean the employees of small business owners who are often forced to seek insurance on their own time? what choice do they have currently? or do you mean the choice of a small business employee to sign on to a plan subsidized by his employer? i would say there's not much of a choice in that. . . go it on my own or take a subsidized plan? hmmmm. . .

actually, the government option will not be an option for those who are already covered under private plans, either on their own or through their employer. and neither would it be an option for businesses who are already covered. this is only an option for those who are not covered or businesses who do not offer coverage.

so your solution is to stand up to insurance companies? don't you think people have been trying this for as long as insurers have been burning through all obstacles (including life-extending treatments) between them and profit? please. government is there to look out for us, and this is a stance against insurance companies we could never undertake with fliers, letters or phone calls. spell out exactly what you find dangerous about this reform, because so far it's been (unsurprisingly) based on misinformation.

__________________

“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.”

verklingen

here's a pertinent talk by a psychologist about what he calls the "moral matrix:"



TED Blog: The healthcare debate: Jonathan Haidt on how our moral roots skew our reasoning

__________________

“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.”

stoneric

Exactly. I have no problem with anyone who doesn't like obama's plan but to keep the status quo, which we'll end up with after the insurance lobby waters any reform down, makes no sense. What the fuck though, "only" 18,000 died last year because of our wonderful system.

spicoli

So now I'm misinformed because I don't agree with you, verk? That's unfair. We both have opposing views as to what MAY happen if this plan goes through. The reality of the situation is we really don't know what will happen, we can only speculate.
As a sidenote: perhaps if this bill wasn't being shoved down our goddamn throats 24/7 trying to pursuade the more than 50% of the country that doesn't want this that it's a good idea- it'd be more well received. Just a thought. And what's the rush? Something to hide? No....they would never.

__________________
The only thing that limits human beings is what we think we know. -me

John F. Kerry

^/waits for greives to claim this well spoken individual here is another of "my alts".

__________________
Nasa under Obama

verklingen

spicoli i respect you a lot and i apologize in advance. . . i went through all this shit with j wonder months ago and he somewhat damaged my ability to be cordial about this subject.

no, i said that because you're presenting things that are the result of a disinfo campaign intent on stopping reform at all cost. the illegal alien argument is on par with senior "death panels." the proposal has specific language to ensure only legal citizens are accepted into the program.

so again, what are your REAL concerns?

sounds reasonable enough. but i'm not concerned with what will happen, i'm concerned with what's happening now. 45+ million people are uninsured. seniors (like my mother in law who is battling cancer for the 5th goddamn time) are being denied treatments that add valuable months to their painful lives. the sense that profit should drive the health industry is absolutely ridiculous. insurers are unequivocally rewarded for beefing up their bottom line by denying care and cutting corners. every day doctors perform procedures which have become routine such as tonsillectomies, circumcisions, etc without actual need to do so. uninsured people end up in emergency rooms due to accidents or the progression of a chronic illness that could have been stalled or stopped entirely by preventative care. it's a heavy burden and we all pay the price. . . already. what i see in this proposal is merely a way to go about it proactively with reason and sense.

may i ask where you got that statistic? i have seen so many statistics in this thread without anyone actually providing a source i think my head may explode.

and on the other hand, perhaps if not for the unforgiving disinfo campaign orchestrated by special interest groups. . . there wouldn't be such resistance to the plan in the first place. they did their job though, i guess. even reasonable people on yahooka have been caught in the tumult.

__________________

“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.”