Why are so many people angry about Obamas proposed Obama-Care? - Page 6

stoneric · 08-12-2009, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mydriasis

If there was a way that obama's health-care costed me nothing, I wouldn't mind.

There is. The trillion we're spending on Iraq, Afghanistan, the billions of aid sent to mother israel and egypt and jordan and saudi arabia and..... The 600 billion spent on the generals running our foreign policy. Where's the rage from the trailor court crowd at the town hall shout downs for this bullshit spending?

**Kompressor** · 08-12-2009, 08:38 AM

fyi jfk, only the last half of the last sentence of my last post was sarcastic. Admittedly having a dry tone, but all written as intended.

verklingen · 08-12-2009, 09:27 AM

like i was saying all along, people are angry about obama's proposed obama-care because there is an organized effort to shoot it down with misinformation. who's waging class warfare now?

Quote:

Far-right religious group behind outrageous health care lies
By Sue Sturgis on August 11, 2009 1:12 PM

When reporters asked former Alaska Gov. and Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin where she got the misinformation she posted to her Facebook page about the health care reform bill creating a "death panel" to promote euthanizing the elderly and people with disabilities, her spokesperson pointed to the section in the House Democrats' legislation that begins on page 425.

If Palin or her staff had actually read the bill, they would have realized this section simply promotes advance care planning, which in fact puts the power to make decisions about end-of-life care in the hands of individuals -- not government panels.

So where did Palin get that bad information? It appears she pulled it from a set of talking points that has been making its way around the internet in recent weeks -- talking points assembled by the Liberty Counsel, a far-right religious group that's part of Jerry Falwell's Liberty University empire based in Lynchburg, Va.

Founded in 1989, the Liberty Counsel is a nonprofit law firm and public policy organization with offices in Florida, Virginia and Washington, D.C. Its founder and chairman is Mathew D. Staver (in photo), who also serves as the dean of Liberty University School of Law, and its president is Staver's wife, attorney Anita L. Staver. Before becoming a lawyer, Mathew Staver was a pastor in the Seventh Day Adventist Church, a conservative Protestant sect that believes in the infallibility of the Bible.

Liberty Counsel established its reputation with lawsuits successfully challenging the division of church and state and became affiliated with Liberty University/Falwell Ministries in 2004. Before he died in 2007, Falwell said that he could "think of no greater work being done right now in America for the sake of our religious freedom and Christian heritage than that being done by Liberty Counsel."

The group made the news recently for its legal fight in Florida against a gay couple who received a judge's permission to adopt two children they helped rescue from a crack house. It's also won widespread attention for its Help Save Christmas® campaign as well as its annual Day of Purity™ promoting sexual abstinence among youth.

On July 29, 2009, Liberty Counsel released its talking points about the health care reform bill. Among the many parts of the legislation it raises concerns about is the page cited by Palin, about which it states:

Quote:

* Sec. 1233, Pg. 425, Lines 4-12 - Government mandates Advance (Death) Care Planning consultation. Think Senior Citizens and end of life. END-OF-LIFE COUNSELING. SOME IN THE ADMINISTRATION HAVE ALREADY DISCUSSED RATIONING HEALTH CARE FOR THE ELDERLY.

* Sec. 1233, Pg. 425, Lines 17-19 - Government WILL instruct and consult regarding living wills and durable powers of attorney. Mandatory end-of-life planning!

* Sec. 1233, Pg. 425-426, Lines 22-25, 1-3 - Government provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death.

The section of the bill referred to does nothing resembling "rationing health care for the elderly" or "guiding you in death." As we already noted, it simply promotes advance care planning under the Medicare program by encouraging doctors to discuss with their patients advance directives such as living wills and durable powers of attorney -- legal documents that give individuals the power to state what they want in advance so that decision isn't left up to anyone else. You can read the entire bill with the pertinent page numbers here [pdf].

That got us wondering: What other distortions are contained in Liberty Counsel's talking points? We decided to fact-check some of the document's wilder claims against the actual text of the health care bill:

THE CLAIM: "Sec. 122, Pg. 29, Lines 4-16 - YOUR HEALTH CARE WILL BE RATIONED!"
THE FACTS: This refers to a section in Subtitle C of the legislation, which sets standards guaranteeing access to essential benefits. The lines the Liberty Counsel's talking point refers to actually limit the costs a family in a covered plan can be required to share in order to receive essential benefits. It does nothing to "ration" health care.
THE CLAIM: "Sec. 1177, Pg. 354 - Government will RESTRICT enrollment of special needs people! 'Extension of Authority of Special Needs Plans to Restrict Enrollment.'"
THE FACTS: This piece of the legislation refers to a section of the Social Security Act governing insurance for the elderly and disabled. It grandfathers in certain plans that already had contracts to run integrated Medicaid-Medicare programs for the impoverished elderly, and it requires the Department of Health and Human Services to analyze the impact of those plans. It restricts no one's enrollment in anything.
THE CLAIM: "Sec. 1308, Pg. 489 - The government will cover Marriage and Family therapy. This will involve government control of your marriage."
THE FACTS: This section of the bill does provide for insurance coverage of marriage and family therapy -- but by licensed, certified therapists, not government agents.

As this quick fact-check shows, the Liberty Counsel's talking points appear to have been assembled by someone who is either only barely literate or who simply scanned the document for language that could be twisted to serve their own propaganda purposes, with little regard for what the legislation actually says.

Either way, the document reflects poorly on the Liberty Counsel, and by extension Liberty University. We have a call in to Liberty Counsel Media Director Tessa Sturgill and will let you know what we hear from her.

To fight against the kind of blatant distortions being propagated by the Liberty Counsel and others, the White House has launched "Health Insurance Reform Reality Check," in which experts take on various pieces of misinformation being spread about the legislation.

ISS - Far-right religious group behind "death panels" myth also behind other health care reform distortions

so there you have it

Mydriasis · 08-12-2009, 10:47 AM

Quote:

There is. The trillion we're spending on Iraq, Afghanistan, the billions of aid sent to mother israel and egypt and jordan and saudi arabia and..... The 600 billion spent on the generals running our foreign policy. Where's the rage from the trailor court crowd at the town hall shout downs for this bullshit spending?

So your saying that we should step out of sending aid to these foreign countries? I couldn't agree more. You wanna cut down on the government's expenses I'm all for it. But if you haven't realized, Obama isn't planning on stopping that, nor the war(like he said), nor the corruption in our government(plenty of ear-marks being tossed around with this leader).

Being - I'm really not scared by the GOP's and right wing's lies. Sarah Palin is just as much as a dumb-shit actor as Obama is. That's not where I got the idea that health-care reform would expand the government. I figured that out on my own, and if you can't see how it would than I think your being blinded by your own bias... I'm a libertarian if it makes you guys feel any better.

Verkinglen -

Quote:

# THE CLAIM: "Sec. 122, Pg. 29, Lines 4-16 - YOUR HEALTH CARE WILL BE RATIONED!"
# THE FACTS: This refers to a section in Subtitle C of the legislation, which sets standards guaranteeing access to essential benefits. The lines the Liberty Counsel's talking point refers to actually limit the costs a family in a covered plan can be required to share in order to receive essential benefits. It does nothing to "ration" health care.

Oh so there'll be no limit on this free health-care? Sweet. Who's paying the doctors? Oh wait us, that's what I've been trying to say this whole time...

It's not about lies or anything to me. It's just if the gov't is getting more finger's on things, then the gov't is expanding and gaining more control. When the gov't has more control than the industries fail and the gov't asks for more.

Why did the US gov't buy GM when it was -billions in debt? power. Why did it buy banks when they were in debt, power. Not to stimulate the economy, its really all about control and power. And we all know the people are more progressive than gov't agencies that's why our country worked. This is why I don't support this socialist movement.

Mull D · 08-12-2009, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by verklingen

like i was saying all along, people are angry about obama's proposed obama-care because there is an organized effort to shoot it down with misinformation.

? how does this follow?

verklingen · 08-12-2009, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mydriasis

It's not about lies or anything to me. It's just if the gov't is getting more finger's on things, then the gov't is expanding and gaining more control. When the gov't has more control than the industries fail.

you know man i used to be worried about government power too. now i realize that any power grabs for selfish purposes end up shooting the grabber in the foot. the stakes are too high in this world of ours, which is much different from that of our grandparents or even our parents. it's shrinking by the day as mutually beneficial relationships which cross all borders, cultures, dogmas and ideals are recognized as the way forward and solidified. taking "power" is keeping in line with our current trajectory: straight off a cliff. this is where our competitive paradigm has lead us and continuing with it cannot possibly change the course.

our very survival is at stake, from the elites of society to the lowest of the low. sooner or later, and there are glaring signs of it already, the behavior of those who seek power will be recognized as the means which have brought this dire situation about. i have to assume that the will of these people to survive will trump their selfishness. and even if it does not, it will be they who perish while we who choose unity will thrive in a new world devoid of such reckless sentiment.

verklingen · 08-12-2009, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by orangepeel

? how does this follow?

a lot of the dissent is being orchestrated by right-wing groups. not activist groups mind you, but groups that have ties with congress and congressional lobbying firms. they are hellbent on spreading misinfo like the reform bill creating a so-called "death panel" to make calls on which seniors are allowed or denied treatment. they also ship people along with gop officials to various democratic congressional districts so they can appear at town hall meetings to raise a ruckus by shouting down the congressmen/women.

there are legitimate worries of course but the lion's share of the dissent has been a political positioning effort by right-wing interest groups.

Mydriasis · 08-12-2009, 11:18 AM

Pretty fluffy(well written but ambigious and big) statement, can't quite grab what your trying to say.

I know those who reach for power, fall hard and all that. But not if their protected and insured by our tax dollars... Are you trying to say this bill is non-power-reactive?

verklingen · 08-12-2009, 11:32 AM

no, i'm trying to say that our entire complex of institutions are rotten to the core and any endeavors utilizing the sentiments which built those institutions are doomed to fail. our current economic crisis is a symptom of this rot, and the longer those in power try to dress over it the harder the eventual collapse will be. if that collapse is hard enough it threatens not only the lifestyle of these people, but also their very ability to SURVIVE: access to clean food and water, shelter, clothing, etc. the backbone of these efforts is becoming flimsier by the day, even as the need for progressive means of cooperation is highlighted. a new paradigm is emerging and fighting it means literal death. this is why i'm not at all concerned about how something can be used for power. it's a done deal in my mind. i'd much rather become excited by the signs of humanitarianism and goodwill i see coming forward in all corners of the globe. access to adequate healthcare for all my fellow citizens is therefor something to become very excited about.

Mydriasis · 08-12-2009, 11:45 AM

Couldn't agree more with you verklingen. Though I just don't see why we should feed the hand that's biting us until this reformation takes place. We really do need a renaissance.

Being · 08-12-2009, 12:15 PM

Alright then, how do you propose to fix the health insurance industry?

Because all you have done is say - do nothing. Because you, and the rest of the country cannot force the health insurance companies to change, we don't have the power, and they control something we cannot go without, how do you propose things get fixed?

You realize with less government, corporations end up having more power than they do already?

Quote:

Oh so there'll be no limit on this free health-care? Sweet. Who's paying the doctors? Oh wait us, that's what I've been trying to say this whole time...

You realize that this country wastes 2 trillion dollars on health inscurance bullshit every year already. If we fix whats wrong and create competition, we might just end up saving money. AND we are already paying for the uninsured? If there are less uninsured, there would be less taxes to cover them and the need for their free clinics, etc.

And the do nothing and let market forces fix themselves approach.... yeah. Right, because that has gotten us a whole hella lot fixed.

Quote:

For example, health care spending today consumes 30 percent more of state and local budgets than it did 20 years ago, forcing governments to choose between cutting services and raising taxes.

And 1/5 of our national economic output would be spent on health insurance.

You need to remember, this plan isn't just for a public option. Thats one important piece among many to fix things all together. Without it you just have a ton of legal jargon that lawyers for insurance companies will soon get around.

Now, I understand this is from the White House directly, but its pretty damn informative with not that much bullshit.
Frequently Asked Questions about Health Insurance Reform | Health Insurance Reform Reality Check

Quote:

That is why the President has been clear that he will not sign a health care reform bill unless it is deficit neutral and on a stable trajectory as the decade ends.

Just read through it. I understand its obviously going to have some bias to try and get their objective achieved, but its a good place to start, without all the fear tactics. Things are laid out organized and for you to interpret. Remember, they don't have a bill completed yet that they will all approve, they are still asking for bipartisan support to complete it.

OldSchoolStylee · 08-12-2009, 12:23 PM

Just a reminder that the US government spent $65 billion on developing a plane it will never use but people are angry that they might give a safety net to the underpriviliged in their own country

Mydriasis · 08-12-2009, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Alright then, how do you propose to fix the health insurance industry?

What's so terribly wrong with it? If you can pay for it you can have it. Just like everything else. If you can't than find a way to. I said I was all for disabled persons and combat vet's(underpriveledg ed children as well) getting free-health care. Which is as socialist as I'll get sorry guys.

Maybe I really am a social darwin, but if you smoke crack and can't hold a job I don't want to help pay for your cancer removal you dig? Or prison inmates getting free health-care. I mean sure everyone deserves to live, but how long is up to them. I do know what it's like to be really sick and have no insurance as well. It was a motivating factor to sort my shit out.

OldSchoolStylee · 08-12-2009, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mydriasis

What's so terribly wrong with it? If you can pay for it you can have it. Just like everything else. If you can't than find a way to. I said I was all for disabled persons and combat vet's getting free-health care. Which is as socialist as I'll get sorry guys.

Maybe I really am a social darwin, but if you smoke crack and can't hold a job I don't want to help pay for your cancer removal you dig? Or prison inmates getting free health-care. I mean sure everyone deserves to live, but how long is up to them.

yeah here's some stupid strawman arguements to give credence to my theories on society.

Basically you don't like the idea of anyone being given a helping hand because it might be "socialist"

You say that you are a "social darwin" (that's a bad thing btw and I don't think you've fully grasped that) but all that translates as is a objectivist world view grown from narrow life experience.

If you think that everyone who can't afford health insurance is a crackhead or whatever then I am sorry but you are quite simply wrong.

Grieves · 08-12-2009, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mydriasis

What's so terribly wrong with it? If you can pay for it you can have it. Just like everything else. If you can't than find a way to. I said I was all for disabled persons and combat vet's(underpriveledg ed children as well) getting free-health care. Which is as socialist as I'll get sorry guys.

Maybe I really am a social darwin, but if you smoke crack and can't hold a job I don't want to help pay for your cancer removal you dig? Or prison inmates getting free health-care. I mean sure everyone deserves to live, but how long is up to them. I do know what it's like to be really sick and have no insurance as well. It was a motivating factor to sort my shit out.

Why is every person that needs help a bad person or a person in despondency to you...There are good hardworking people who for circumstances out of their control can't afford adequate health insurance or to pay the bills in full...

It is a grey = people need help issue not a black = poor and bad no help, white = rich and good get help issue....

Mydriasis · 08-12-2009, 01:15 PM

I do have an objectivist point of view. I'm a huge fan of Ayn Rand.

I have friends and family who are screwed with debt, and I feel the same way about their situation. Sure I would personally take care of them, but I don't expect everyone already fucked for money to have to pay more taxes for another persons needs.

Oldschoolstylee don't call me a stupid straw man haha. If anything I'm a tin-man. I'm not afriad of being a "socialist" I just don't support what being a socialist stands for by most means.

I really don't see a point in discussing this further but every post I make there's two more coming right back at me.

Mydriasis · 08-12-2009, 01:23 PM

Quote:

While I agree the military is made up of an overwhelming majority of poor people, I think it's rather insulting to your friends to assume the only way out of their poverty is the military. It may seem like that for some but for most there are other options

So I can't support my friends changes they've made in their lives by doing something healthy? What so they were boosting shit before, slinging hard drugs, etc then they go to the military and change their whole lives around, and I can't commend them? It's insulting?

wow

I mean sure there's other ways out of poverty yea, but the military is a pretty direct way to get it all in one shebang. My friends worked their asses off and made sacrifices for the military and I'm proud of them, and I'm glad that some people take control of their lives. I don't care if you care or not that is irrelevant.

Quote:

Your draft argument seems a bit outdated, as Vietnam was over thirty years ago, not that I'm saying the draft and the war weren't wrong and we should never forget the lessons learned but since then there has not been one draft in this country, it is all volunteer.

Oh so you don't remember when they were talking about a draft for the current war, that we're in?

I really don't think everyone deserves to be cared for is my opinion. Your only gaurenteed life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Nowhere do I see healthiness.

John F. Kerry · 08-12-2009, 01:33 PM

mydriasis sorry i havent been posting my agreement more. i think you've been doing a pretty good job on your own

terry the military is an exception imo . if people are gonna go and almost die in iraq for me then i can pay their heath care costs. that i think is the least i can do. it doesnt mean people flipping burgers at mcdonalds are owed so much of my respect and admiration ....

Grieves · 08-12-2009, 01:40 PM

crackheads and chimos and all those nasty character traits are just as prevalent in the military as they are in common society...We all die for this country equally, weither it is on the battlefield or serving the masses at a mcdonalds...We are all citizens, paying into the same system...Merit of health care should not be dependent on social standing...

John F. Kerry · 08-12-2009, 01:42 PM

the military is the sole exception i would make for this. no one else deserves to have health care for free (if they can afford it or even part of it on their own).

or we could just have a draft again if you guys would rather do that...

08-12-2009, 08:38 AM	#102 (permalink)
Kompressor Voice of Reason Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Illinois Posts: 7,953 Thanks: 0 Thanked 2,772 Times in 1,464 Posts	fyi jfk, only the last half of the last sentence of my last post was sarcastic. Admittedly having a dry tone, but all written as intended. __________________ Think like a man of action, act like a man of thought. -H. Bergson

08-12-2009, 11:18 AM	#108 (permalink)
Mydriasis Do Not Resuscitate Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,317 Thanks: 840 Thanked 431 Times in 298 Posts	Pretty fluffy(well written but ambigious and big) statement, can't quite grab what your trying to say. I know those who reach for power, fall hard and all that. But not if their protected and insured by our tax dollars... Are you trying to say this bill is non-power-reactive? __________________ ۞

08-12-2009, 11:32 AM	#109 (permalink)
verklingen Radical Dreamer Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: texas Posts: 8,031 Thanks: 795 Thanked 1,470 Times in 940 Posts	no, i'm trying to say that our entire complex of institutions are rotten to the core and any endeavors utilizing the sentiments which built those institutions are doomed to fail. our current economic crisis is a symptom of this rot, and the longer those in power try to dress over it the harder the eventual collapse will be. if that collapse is hard enough it threatens not only the lifestyle of these people, but also their very ability to SURVIVE: access to clean food and water, shelter, clothing, etc. the backbone of these efforts is becoming flimsier by the day, even as the need for progressive means of cooperation is highlighted. a new paradigm is emerging and fighting it means literal death. this is why i'm not at all concerned about how something can be used for power. it's a done deal in my mind. i'd much rather become excited by the signs of humanitarianism and goodwill i see coming forward in all corners of the globe. access to adequate healthcare for all my fellow citizens is therefor something to become very excited about. __________________ “Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.” rip matt

08-12-2009, 11:45 AM	#110 (permalink)
Mydriasis Do Not Resuscitate Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,317 Thanks: 840 Thanked 431 Times in 298 Posts	Couldn't agree more with you verklingen. Though I just don't see why we should feed the hand that's biting us until this reformation takes place. We really do need a renaissance. __________________ ۞

08-12-2009, 12:23 PM	#112 (permalink)
OldSchoolStylee ¯\(º_o)/¯ Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Blighty Posts: 8,202 Thanks: 17 Thanked 131 Times in 54 Posts	Just a reminder that the US government spent $65 billion on developing a plane it will never use but people are angry that they might give a safety net to the underpriviliged in their own country __________________ .<12not_bongo> oss is legit hellz ya.

08-12-2009, 01:15 PM	#116 (permalink)
Mydriasis Do Not Resuscitate Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,317 Thanks: 840 Thanked 431 Times in 298 Posts	I do have an objectivist point of view. I'm a huge fan of Ayn Rand. I have friends and family who are screwed with debt, and I feel the same way about their situation. Sure I would personally take care of them, but I don't expect everyone already fucked for money to have to pay more taxes for another persons needs. Oldschoolstylee don't call me a stupid straw man haha. If anything I'm a tin-man. I'm not afriad of being a "socialist" I just don't support what being a socialist stands for by most means. I really don't see a point in discussing this further but every post I make there's two more coming right back at me. __________________ ۞

08-12-2009, 01:33 PM	#118 (permalink)
John F. Kerry Weiner-stache Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 3,628 Thanks: 1,761 Thanked 446 Times in 324 Posts	mydriasis sorry i havent been posting my agreement more. i think you've been doing a pretty good job on your own terry the military is an exception imo . if people are gonna go and almost die in iraq for me then i can pay their heath care costs. that i think is the least i can do. it doesnt mean people flipping burgers at mcdonalds are owed so much of my respect and admiration ....

08-12-2009, 01:40 PM	#119 (permalink)
Grieves Biblioburro... Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Terra Sancta Posts: 11,572 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 1,877 Thanked 2,541 Times in 1,417 Posts	crackheads and chimos and all those nasty character traits are just as prevalent in the military as they are in common society...We all die for this country equally, weither it is on the battlefield or serving the masses at a mcdonalds...We are all citizens, paying into the same system...Merit of health care should not be dependent on social standing... __________________ "And no matter what they said dollar is not your friend and it's the feelings that are hard to know are the feelings that all come slow No matter what they said dollar is not your friend and these feelings that so hard to know are the feelings that wont let go No don't let go, till you find a home World Unite and I'll love you forever"

08-12-2009, 01:42 PM	#120 (permalink)
John F. Kerry Weiner-stache Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 3,628 Thanks: 1,761 Thanked 446 Times in 324 Posts	the military is the sole exception i would make for this. no one else deserves to have health care for free (if they can afford it or even part of it on their own). or we could just have a draft again if you guys would rather do that...

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