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Old 08-07-2009, 11:28 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Why are so many people angry about Obamas proposed Obama-Care?

Im really curious?

because it seems to me that as many people seem as pissed about the governement socialist takeover of healthcare as there were people concerned about the war in Iraq....


and another thing that is intersting to me is that I thought mostly it would be rich people opposing the new socialized medicine rationing of health care proposals.... but in fact, it seems like most of the people at these town hall meetings screaming and bitching are probably NOT rich people and more likely seem to be myriad and varied from old people to young people to hicks to black people to everyone who ive seen in vids protesting the gov't takeover of heatlh care.


now its obvious why some people support obamas plan- because it will give them healthcare they didnt previously have and not charge them for it- i mean its not that hard to imagine that people who dont have health care would support just about ANYTHINg that would result in them being given healthcare.


but what surprises me in this debate is how the democrats have really tried to make it seem like the main thrust of opposition is from insurance companies and rich people- which is clearly not the case-

so the democrats are basically lying (or if u wanna be charitable they are misinformed or ignorant) and they are trying to subvert the will of the middle class by handing out talking points and by telling their supporters (the people who are getting ready for handouts) that the only people against it are people like rush limbaugh and glen beck....

i guess its just intersting to me to see the lengths the democrats will go to to split our country down the middle again- we had just it seemed gotten out of an era of intense partisanship and here the democrats decide to go all out to fight and smash and slam their ideas thru a congress that doesnt suppor their ideas (even many dems don) and to change a system that at least half of americans dont want changed.



It makes you wonder if the dems are either stupid or arrogant or possibly both- because instead of riding the wave of good feeling and being like bill clinton and seeming to be "hands off" etc they instead followed exactly the same mistakes Bush made and totaly reved up the polarization of our country to push thru something that at least everyone can agree is not supported by a vast majority of people- in other words- its controversial - and the dems decided that this will be their all-or-nothing bet-

i just am amazed at how they would show their hand and show themselves to be exactly what many people feared they were and what many people traditionally regard liberals as being (holier than tho, we know whats best for you stupid morons, we'll do it because we know and the people against us are just corporate interests or for some other reason not worth regarding )


they did exactly the same thing Bush did when u think about it- they are pushing thru a plan which many doubt the wisdom of , and seem to have decided that come hell or high water they will try to ram this thru- destroying whatever good feeling they had for themselves along the way- and in the end, pleasing the small fringe of people who are looking for handouts and will get them with this bill-


i just cant belive how stupid they are- i mean whether u agree with their plan or not- you have to admit they have went about passing it in a very brash and push-your-way-thru despite the fact that people have grave doubts about the wisdom of the plan kinda way...

time will tell if it works or not, i just am kinda amazed at how they have shown themselves to be what i suspected they were, and how they did it so brazenly that really unless your one of thoese getting the handout i cant imagine you thinking that they did it in a good way-

essentially they said "well you people have been fucked by the man for so long " (in nancy pelosis opinion) that "now we are gonna fuck the man for your benefit"


thats fine or whatever, but it certainly doesnt sound even remotely like obama during the campaign or obama when he talked about bringing people together and ending partisanship.


there are so many ways to get poor people health insurance without destroying it for the rest of us, that why they would want to do it that way is literally beyond me.
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Old 08-07-2009, 11:34 AM   #2 (permalink)
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first off, "so many" people are not angry about the admin's proposed plan

as for those who are angry, it's surely much to do with the egregious amount of baseless disinfo that has penetrated even the mainstream. as a casual example, consider how some people actually believe the plan is set up to get rid of the elderly. check out this shit, one of my stupid ass congressmen even believes it:



so yeah, with a bunch of retardation going around on top of people being butthurt about a biracial, democratic presidency it's easy to believe some lunatics are becoming angry
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Old 08-07-2009, 11:36 AM   #3 (permalink)
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so u basically say that people are rascist and stupid and thats why people are angry?


thats fine if you think that, but all im saying is that u saying that doesnt get us anywhere and it destroys the semblence of bipartisanship that seemed to be at hand.

so it really is pretty dumb if u ask me
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Old 08-07-2009, 11:40 AM   #4 (permalink)
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look at how much coverage the "birther" movement garnered. . . i really don't think it's dumb to assume being stupid and butthurt plays a major part

i mean seriously, look at you! you're trying to compare the push for an illegal war to providing healthcare for our citizens. yeesh
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Old 08-07-2009, 11:46 AM   #5 (permalink)
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all im saying is that by making our country be this way they will lose in the end, whther they win or lose on this issue.


they may be able to use their entire leverage to get socialist medicine passed- but in the end they will find , as bush did, that pushing thru unpopular things in the face of strong opposition is a recipie for your own ruin.
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Old 08-07-2009, 11:48 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Is it that it won't work, or that you don't want to see it work?
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Old 08-07-2009, 11:49 AM   #7 (permalink)
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im so sick of the partisanship in this country that i could vomit, the news channels just work people into a frenzy to either hate bush and palin or to want to see obamas birth certificate and all that shit.


i thought when people voted for obama (the moderate people) that they were saying ok we'll chose you in the name of putting the past behind us and making our country whole again-

then less than 5 months later they spring the trap (the liberals like pelosi and reid).... they totaly throw all the bipartisanship (which they would have never been elected without) out the window and start right up with class warfare...


instead of arguing back and forth on these highly partisan issues for another 4 or 8 years i had hoped by moderate people electing an elloquent and well spoken black man that maybe we could move back to moderation- instead by their own choices, the democrats have started it all up again-


this is exactly what i meant when i said the health care "myth" would destroy the 10s the same way the 9/11 myth would destroy the 00s.

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Old 08-07-2009, 11:52 AM   #8 (permalink)
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my position komp is that it wont work, ive said many times we can either have expensive good health care where we dont wait for months for procedures and where u get to make your own health care choices with your doctor- OR we can have some crap health care that is better for the 50 mil who never had any but is much worse for the 250 million who did-

so i would like to see us shrink government, fund a subsidy on health care for poor people , and that will be the end of it-

why would the dems want to do such an ellaborate change when first of all people dont want it and second of all it likely wont even work? and why would they try to drown out all talk that they are not the 2nd comming ? it just seems to me like they are worried that their partisan charade is being exposed for what it is. and rejected by a public who is sick of partisanship, from either side.
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Old 08-07-2009, 11:57 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Old 08-07-2009, 12:00 PM   #10 (permalink)
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thats a good question- to be honest i dont know - i wont be paying higher taxes because im not rich and i do think poor people should have health insurnace.



i just have this feeling like we're being swindled hard core by the far left liberals and that when the dust settles ill have crappy healthcare that is more expensive than it used to be.


seriously for everything bush did in iraq his iraq polcies will likely affect most americans far LESS personally than obamas health care proposals.

unless u knew somehow who died in iraq or had family there or whatever, the vast majority of americas WILL be effected by obamas plan and thats why for him to push it thru when so many people so oppose it is really unfair- he is giving us basically no choice other than to accept what many people regard as a bill that will take away our choices and our rights for no reason other than to "equalize" things in favor of special liberal interests .
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Old 08-07-2009, 12:02 PM   #11 (permalink)
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and i also find it funny that the people who are so in favor of this plan cant even explain why - its funny when the shoe is on the other foot to see how thoese people who so protested the iraq war now call us the "fringe right".


well if thats the way they want it , then the dems will have about as much popularity as bush.
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Old 08-07-2009, 12:04 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
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seriously for everything bush did in iraq his iraq polcies will likely affect most americans far LESS personally than obamas health care proposals.
yeah, like the millions of them who will suddenly be able to go to afford going to a doctor. . .

wtf are you on about

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a bill that will take away our choices and our rights
jesus. . .
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Old 08-07-2009, 12:07 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Here's my explanation:

It's not going to affect my health insurance.

It's a public option, meaning you can opt out if you find something better.

It'll modernize our healthcare databases and provide more emphasis on primary care than special treatment [aka where the money is].

Also, you're 'so many people' are only 29% at best, as 71% of Americans are for the public option, even if they are uncertain about Obama.
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Old 08-07-2009, 12:13 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Corporate Scum Thugs are Drug Worrier Scum Thugs

because it seems to me?



Corporate thuggery isn't anger.
Redneck lapdogs following insurance whores aren't either.
Shouting and threats are censorship to the average citizen.
Nothing knew, many fascists use this method,
when they're talking out of their ass.
Same drug thugs, teabagging GOPerverts.
Bushit and Cheney slimeballs doing the same as removing the Ganja debate.
Censorship, what are wimpy cowards to do without it?



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Bivings work, premised on the power of the Internet, engages in covert online attacks and web based front groups.

Osborn & Barr Communications
Osborn & Barr was formed in 1988 with Monsanto as its founding client. The company's slogan is, "We create belief." - Friday, January 15, 1999 Osborne & Barr to harvest Monsanto's ag marketing.

Big Lies by Joe Conason
The Right-Wing Propaganda Machine and How It Distorts the Truth

Kill the Messenger



The Wrecking Crew, on How Conservatives Rule

Democracy Now Interview: Thomas Frank
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Authoritarians Wrecking Crew

Overkill: The Rise of Paramilitary Police Raids
By Radley Balko Cato Institute, 2006

Nixon lied to schedule Ganja #1



Poison For Profit John Jonik Storm Warnings
CHEM/PHARM HAS NO EQUAL - WHAT A BUSINESS PLAN!
ASHLEY SIMMONS HOTZ / redflagsweekly.com 15may02
The huge transnational companies that produce toxic chemicals found in pesticides, herbicides and industrial and household products profit not only from the sale of these products, but also from the symptoms and chronic illnesses that they can trigger.

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Wall street's Spontaneous Abortionists

Nutricide - Criminalizing Natural Health, Vitamins and Herbs

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Old 08-07-2009, 12:16 PM   #15 (permalink)
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dont u guys understand that the public option is designed to slowly force everyone into govt health care? every time i have to reexplain these things it shows how hard policy debates are to have.


the dems want to get everyone on public health care- thats the entire point of this - they want to have public health care that they can by law make cheaper so that over time people will be forced to switch to it- that is literally exactly what they say - that a single payer public healthcare system is what they want-

the public option is just one big lie- im not being stupid or ignorant or arrogant by saying that- thats exactly what it is-

if what u said was really true then i woudlnt have a problem with it- the problem i have is that public health care will be supervised by the gov't they wil ldecide who deserves what procedures etc. and in the end, everyone will be on their public option because they only private insurance left will be so expensive that only the richest can afford it-


also i would very much like to see where u derived the statistic that 71% of americans want a public option because i saw a poll that said 80% of americans who had health insurance were very satisfied with it- and i dont understand how those same people would be for a public option if they are very satisfied with their private care?
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Old 08-07-2009, 12:24 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John F. Kerry View Post
dont u guys understand that the public option is designed to slowly force everyone into govt health care? every time i have to reexplain these things it shows how hard policy debates are to have.


the dems want to get everyone on public health care- thats the entire point of this - they want to have public health care that they can by law make cheaper so that over time people will be forced to switch to it- that is literally exactly what they say - that a single payer public healthcare system is what they want-

the public option is just one big lie- im not being stupid or ignorant or arrogant by saying that- thats exactly what it is-

if what u said was really true then i woudlnt have a problem with it- the problem i have is that public health care will be supervised by the gov't they wil ldecide who deserves what procedures etc. and in the end, everyone will be on their public option because they only private insurance left will be so expensive that only the richest can afford it-


also i would very much like to see where u derived the statistic that 71% of americans want a public option because i saw a poll that said 80% of americans who had health insurance were very satisfied with it- and i dont understand how those same people would be for a public option if they are very satisfied with their private care?
What are the dems ulterior motives for wanting a single payer public health care system? What do they gain? Why is socialism appealing to them?
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Old 08-07-2009, 12:28 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Gallup

Most in U.S. Want Healthcare Reform, but Vary on Urgency

Thirty percent favor new law, but not necessarily this year; a quarter oppose new law at any time
by Frank Newport

PRINCETON, NJ -- Seven in 10 Americans favor the passage of new healthcare reform legislation, but less than half (41%) say a new law needs to be passed this year.



Results from a Gallup Poll conducted Thursday night, one day after President Obama's press conference at which he emphasized the importance of moving quickly on healthcare reform legislation, show that 41% of Americans would advise their representative in Congress to pass a new healthcare reform law by the end of this year; another 30% would say Congress should pass a new law, but not necessarily this year; and the remainder -- 24% -- don't think Congress should pass a new healthcare reform law at all.

The urgency of the effort to pass new healthcare reform legislation has become a significant focus of President Obama's full-court press on the issue. Obama has argued that without a short-term deadline for passing such a law, momentum would be lost and inertia would rule -- lowering the probability that such legislation would ever be passed.

The data show that about 4 out of 10 Americans generally agree with Obama -- that a new healthcare law needs to be passed this year. But that leaves the majority of Americans who do not agree, either because they believe a delay is acceptable, or because they don't believe such a law is needed at all.

There are strong partisan differences in response to this question.



Sixty-three percent of Democrats are behind the effort to pass a new healthcare law this year, with most of the rest choosing the alternative of passing a new law, but not necessarily this year. Almost half of Republicans, on the other hand, favor not passing a new healthcare reform law at all; the slight majority of the rest favor passing a new law, but not necessarily this year, leaving 22% of Republicans favoring a new law to be passed this year.

The crucial bloc of independents -- at this point the largest of the three partisan groups -- are much more mixed in their views, as would be expected. A little more than a third say pass a new law this year; a third say pass a new law, but not necessarily this year; and about a fourth say don't pass a new law at all.

Implications

The good news for the Obama administration: 7 in 10 Americans would advise their representative in Congress to pass a new healthcare reform law -- one of President Obama's major domestic priorities. The not-so-good news for Obama is that less than half (41%) favor passing such a law this year, with 30% favoring a new law but saying it is not necessary to move that quickly. About a quarter of Americans, the majority of whom are Republicans, would advise their representative in Congress not to pass a new healthcare reform law at all.

Survey Methods

Results are based on telephone interviews with 1,030 national adults, aged 18 and older, conducted July 23, 2009, as part of Gallup Poll Daily tracking. For results based on the total sample of national adults, one can say with 95% confidence that the maximum margin of sampling error is ±x percentage points.

Interviews are conducted with respondents on land-line telephones (for respondents with a land-line telephone) and cellular phones (for respondents who are cell-phone only).

In addition to sampling error, question wording and practical difficulties in conducting surveys can introduce error or bias into the findings of public opinion polls.

Polls conducted entirely in one day, such as this one, are subject to additional error or bias not found in polls conducted over several days.
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Old 08-07-2009, 12:29 PM   #18 (permalink)
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also i would very much like to see where u derived the statistic that 71% of americans want a public option because i saw a poll that said 80% of americans who had health insurance were very satisfied with it- and i dont understand how those same people would be for a public option if they are very satisfied with their private care?
Because they know they wouldn't have to give theirs up?
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Old 08-07-2009, 12:37 PM   #19 (permalink)
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how about this- ? show me some kind of evidence that u wont have to give up your care, and if it seems acceptable then i will concede the point.


my entire problem with is (thus dismissing it simply wont do bc its the fundamental problem i have with it)
is that

THE DEMS ARE DOING SOMETHING, JUST NOT THE RIGHT THING.


its great to say oh well were "reforming health care" - but thats not what people want, people want the poor in america to have health care, hence obamas campaign promises that sound a lot like what you are saying now komp - that as i said in the other threads is why many moderates supported obama- because during the campain he said he wanted to "find a way to get poor people health insurance"


now it turns out that the way to get people health insurance is to force private insurnace comapnies to compete with a public heath insurance- which will be SUBSIDIZED BY RICH PEOPLE, so it will by definition be less costly and a better deal than any private insurance because in the first instance the gov't will force providers and hospitals do give the "same quality care but for less money"

now , you can say (as some of the class warfarists do ) that the reason prices are high is because of the "greed" of insurance companies. i will reply to you that that is ludacrous, untrue, and if u think that the gov't can force someone by decree to charge less for their services but maintain the same quality, that it will never happen,



so what we will do is subsidize a health care that the gov't forces to be cheaper (and which will ulitimately make it lower quality because or else there is no way that it wll be cheaper- it will just destroy our economy) . so you have public health care "competing" so well and good on the free market- except that tahts not what it is- its a rich-subsidized care for poor that will by definition be cheaper and thus lower quality for poor people-

now ultimately the gov't will force as many people as possible to be on it (when they lose jobs and private insruance i wonder where they will turn...hmmm?) or in various other ways will subtly force people to change to public care ALL THE WHILE LYING OUT OF THEIR TEETH THAT YOU CAN CHOOSE THE PLAN YOU LIKE BEST-


care to explain what part of what i said is wrong? because as i said if u convince me that obama isnt a flipflopping liar who said one thing to get elected only to chnage his tune to do nancy pelosis bidding then i would love to hear it and think better of the man.
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Old 08-07-2009, 12:40 PM   #20 (permalink)
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What are the dems ulterior motives for wanting a single payer public health care system? What do they gain? Why is socialism appealing to them?
look where their support comes from


MOveon.org?


codepink


acorn


and oprah



any real middle class americans in there? uh - no.


meet the democrats blackwater and halliburton. ^
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