kameelyun

I have read that book, cover to cover. I had to in college. I know all about Kristallnacht etc. I have seem more documentaries on Nazi Germany than I care to count.

I said it was tame RELATIVE to those other regimes I mentioned.

In Pol Pot's Cambodia, EVERYONE was subjected to his wrath. Pol Pot had this "fantastic" idea that the best cities are the ones with no people. His military forced everyone in the entire city out of their homes and forced them to walk out into the countryside, where they were killed in killing fields. Prior to that radical move, people wearing glasses were killed because they looked "intellectual" and PP despised intellectuals.

In modern North Korea, there actually is a tightly underground culture of smuggled VHS tapes of soap operas from South Korea, watched by North Koreans hungry to know what the outside world is like. I read in a similar book on NK that what the authorities do is this: they shut down the power in an entire neighborhood. This means that if you are "guilty" of watching one of these videos at the time, you can not eject it from the VCR without power. Then, the authorities go house to house and make sure the people aren't watching something "subversive." If they are caught, they are sent to a labor camp with zero hope of getting out and subject to constant beatings and torture.

Oh by the way, the book Rise and Fall of the Third Reich propagates the claim, now acknowledged to be false according to mainstream holocaust scholars, that the Germans made soap and lampshades out of Jews.

__________________
"The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

Dr. Nick Nasty

If protesting ever accomplished anything, they would outlaw it.

Wait, nevermind.

Time to bring out the guillotine.

__________________

The true [classical] liberal, in pursuit of fixed principles, must never have fixed political alliances. They must change based on the ruling rationale of the moment.- Lew Rockwell

Ego Tripping

I never said it's always both sides, I just said there's shared guilt amongst these situations. I can't say this enough...can you name a time where the Police weren't hostile towards protesters? This goes back since time immemorial and I find it highly arrogant or perhaps extremely paranoid that you guys are crying "Police State" now. Do some research, for chrissakes! But what's amazing is there was a time when the protests weren't about a global consortium of the economy, but black people fighting to get equal rights enough to drink out of the same water fountain as white people!

We've come a long way and as Verk said, to say our country is dead or even close to it is not only a stretch but is an ungrateful and shortsighted perspective.

In other words, cheer up, kiddos. The world is not as doomed as Alex Jones says it is.

__________________

kameelyun

Took me a few months to get through the whole thing!

__________________
"The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

Ego Tripping

"I was once asked why I don't participate in anti-war demonstrations. I said that I will never do that, but as soon as you have a pro-peace rally, I'll be there."
- Mother Teresa

__________________

kameelyun

"No pot, no peace" - Ken Gorman

__________________
"The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

stoneric

We haven't become a police state. We might be a police state, but if we are, we've been one for a long time.

zerodown

You started it...

Stop what? Exercising my rights? Back from the music topic I noticed you like to argue in an authoritative manner as if you're superior to anyone in here, kind of arrogant in my opinion, and you also never really seem to respond to anything, you just change the subject slightly around.

Like this.

Development of the change right here. Side-tangent? FOCUS ON WHAT MATTERS!

Yes, though I think you haven't, which is obvious since you don't even seem to know what the protests are about. Like someone said, even monks went to protest, are they vandals? Anarchists? Socialists? What social group or ism do you hate? Makes me wonder where you get your news from, do the headlines read something along the lines of "g20 threatend by violent protesters"?

They should have stayed, and helped the protesters that were protesting for them. Your friends just fled. They ignored reality, you seem to be very very afraid of reality.

Yeah I remember, where were you? Sitting at home? safe? I guess so, you were hiding at home probably cause vandals and anarchists were on the streets protesting, woooooo...

Let secondary questions be second, now that we're finished with your tangents and derivatives that stray us from the point that WE AMERICANS HAVE BEEN STRIPPED FROM OUR RIGHTS. So I'll skip all the crap about assholes who call others assholes(more categorization that leads us fucking nowhere, we need unity not segregation) because I don't see how that is irrelevant to anything, on the whole topic. I'll also skip the part about my lack of "credibility" being that what matters here is a video which shows american people being violated and stripped off of their rights. I don't need "credibility" when there is DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE of what I am saying(see first video of OP again). I will also skip the part about "there are also brainless this and brainless that" ceause again it doesn't matter what people are, what matters is YOUR RIGHTS BEING VIOLATED, who is brainless and who is not is just another of your wild tangents straying away from the main point. Lastly I will skip the part about purposes and permits of protests, mainly because IT DOESN'T FUCKING MATTER, FOCUS, learn to walk before running, step by step, first fight for your right, THEN exercise your right.

So lets address what little does relate to the point:

Destruction and violence is not a way to spread a message, its a way to bring about change, its a fundamental rule of life. If you're pissed about something GO PROTEST, its your right, don't stay home getting fatter, GO PROTEST, demand a change. Thoes people protesting and getting shot at are fighting for YOUR RIGHTS, you should be ashamed of not supporting them because if they ever happen to win and make a change you would benefit from it. Go help, stop telling everyone that its not possible, that is called insularism in my country, to think that we're so weak that we can't stop the injustices of a corrupt government.

Questions like this make me lose all hope in america. WHY DO YOU NEED A LEADER TO TELL YOU WHAT TO DO? to tell you what is right or wrong? Can't you use your brain to know that killing is bad? Can't you get along with your neighbors without a court order? Can't you just use your brain anymore? Do you need government to tell you what to do, how to do it and how much to pay for it all the time? DAMN.

I am no leader, I can't command you into doing anything, and I won't expect you to follow any order I could give. you have to understand what is going on and act on your own, make up YOUR MIND. If I were to give you any advice, it would be very simple, watch the videos again, and if you think the police violated their right to protest peacefully, GO PROTEST, nothing will ever change if you don't make it change, these things will continue to happen and continue to worsen until the majority of americans inevitably and systematically as it has happened throughout history, GO TO PROTEST!


[quote]You know who you should be mad at? The idiots who riot and cause destruction which leads to the NEED for fucking riot police and "non-lethal" tanks in an American city./quote]

Again, those idiots are protesting for a better world for you, me and everyone. Don't demonize the ONLY people who are sacrificing their time and lives for you, if anything we should sacrifice government officials who we know are corrupt, forget the legal system, they own it, just group together and go burn them on a cross for treason, you can't take down politicians using the courts, they own the courts, stop being a fool, WAKE UP, start up your brain, grab a book or two about history.



Probably because your dad or granddad didn't go to protest, haha.

Do we need to discuss how corrupt the justice deparment is?

So which is it, can all use it or can no one use it? they(protesters) were using it, and were thrown out of a public space, for using it. Do they have to use it in total silence?

WTF AMERICA? Ii this how the majority of americans think? no wonder the rest of the world hates us and we need nukes to keep them form biting.

__________________
"I've seen people so poor all they got is money."

We have to learn to unlearn
Its not contradiction, its amendment
Not everything we see is reality
Not everything we hear is the truth
Not everything we're taught helps us grow
~Cultura Profetica

"La locura se lleva en la cabeza y las drogas en los bolsillos"
~Roberto Iniesta

Ego Tripping

Heh...I've been hearing speculation that the video of the "kidnapping" was completely staged by protesters to make a point, as the uniforms don't match any kind of police or military authority nor does the car they were driving.

Hey, sounds just as plausible as the other cover-ups, right? But if it proves true, it renders this thread pure sensationalism. I'm shocked. Seriously.

__________________

JcP

Yes, me asking you to stop it was asking you to stop exercising your rights. (jesus christ....)


no, it might seem that way to you, since your involvement in the music downloading thread was ridonkulous, but I'm actually quite level headed. Authoritative manner? Far from it. I admit being wrong quite often (and often find middle ground with people...mydraxis was the most recent one to come to mind...Dubstyle even on one or two occasions). I do, however, insist upon consistancy and logic in people's arguments and debate tactics...and when you don't fulfill your obligation to do so (in so far as the basis for good discussion) I call you out on it.
I will now respond to each and every one of your points clearly and concisely. I am a bit befuddled at your belief I change the subject...as I don't think I have even ONCE done so...but what can you do...
Like this.



This right here is avoiding the topic. Once again, instead of answering the question, you've side-stepped it. What's the problem? It's a simple answer is it not? A simple answer would completely remove this secondary question-line in this discussion...so provide it, admit you don't know/can't describe it, or move on. Continuing to hop-scotch your way around the issue and using it back at me as if I don't have the ability to focus on what matters is extremely frustrating. I think this DOES matter (as I am aware of the hodgepodge of groups all protesting at the same time), as it showcases the unfocused and DIFFERENT aspects to the protest group.


You just shot yourself in the foot. The monks are not the vandals and anarchists...but vandals and anarchists are part of the protest. so instead of raging against the police sent out to PREVENT vandalism, why not focus on distancing yourself from these groups so the police "presence" isn't warranted? This, right here, is why the police are there. If there was a bunch of monks chillin asking for peace #1 they would be given a permit and #2, that goddamn speaker tank would not be in Pittsburgh.


How am I afraid of reality? Because I disagree with your politics? Frankly, I see more fear in "zomg police statz!!!" than in anything I'm suggesting. Where is my fear? What reality am I ignoring? My friends do not agree with anarchism, nor do they find value in protesting 20 of the most powerful leaders getting together and talking.
See, there is a paradox...in order for there to be a prosperous and peaceful planet, leaders have to get together and talk. When this happens, some people freak the fuck out calling it the NWO. I, and my friends (three of them total), see this as a necessary step towards peace.
So fear? That's your territory, dude, not mine.

No, I live in NYC. I was sitting watching the television feeling sad that people trying to express their concern for global warming, banking institutions, and unfair trade agreements were being hijacked by angry masked people causing riots.
I'm a little tired of the personal attacks. Please try to keep it in check.

You never answered my "secondary" question, so no we're not. But moving on....


These people are violating the law. Please define your usage of the word "rights" as the rights of the people, as far as I ever learned in polysci, is determined by the interpretation of the constitution, bill of rights, and subsequent decisions made by local and federal courts...


I see an illegal protest that has closed a public street being dispersed without a single shot being fired. What should I be seeing here?

Permits for protests are entirely instrinsic to this discussion, so I am afraid I'm going to have to insist you address this, or this discussion will go nowhere. Again, you need to define your interepretation of "rights" because apparently your understanding of them is foreign to me.


"destruction and violence...is a way to bring about change." wow dude.

I've been to many a protest in my life, thank you very much. Never once violent or based on destruction. Ergo, the only police presence I have ever seen was at the end of the march route.


Fuck them...fighting for my rights. What are you talking about? I did not ask them to do so, I do not feel my rights being infringed upon. What would be my benefit?
I find it so ironic you opened up your response to me calling me arrogant, only to then assume your world-view is right and I should be ashamed for not agreeing with you.
What isn't possible? What are you talking about? What is your subject in this sentence?

WHAT INJUSTICES?! It's not INJUSTICE to be arrested at an illegal protest...thats JUSTICE. DEFINITION OF JUSTICE: The administration and procedure of law.
FFS....

Three or so paragraphs ago, you praised destruction and violence. good christ....
you also completely side-stepped the question I was actually posing to you which was WHAT IS YOUR PLAN? Who said I needed a leader? That word was never once mentioned. I'm asking for YOUR PLAN.

shrug. No clue where this is coming from.

I made up my mind...apparently I'm wrong, arrogant, blind, brainless, and afraid of reality. I don't recall asking you to be my leader. I recall asking you to explain to me your plan.

Are you under the impression that it is your right to gather people anywhere you want any time you want regardless of the consequences to the common good, domestic tranquility, and ability for others to function and move without being prevented to do so by your actions? If so, this would be very illuminating.

PROTEST WHAT?! leaders gathering? global warming? the entire concept of government? What are you protesting?! I didn't protest because I do not wish my voice to be associated with rioters and anarchists. I protest all the time (well, not ALL the time, but I've been to quite a few) for issues I care about.



anarchists and rioters are not speaking for me, nor are they sacrificing their lives and time for me. And you do not speak for me either.

history? What history would you like to discuss?


YOU can do whatever you want. ORGANIZING a protest and taking over public land (in this case, a street) is a completely different concept. You see the difference?

yea, they hate us for our intolerance of rioters and anarchists.

PS--- don't talk about other people's father/grandfather when you don't know them. You open yourself up to foot-in-mouth situations...

__________________

Just look out around us, people fightin their wars...
They think they'll be happy when they've settled their scores...
Let's lay down our weapons
and hold us apart
be still for just a minute
try to open our hearts
MORE LOVE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rev It's not what you see, it's that you're looking.

JcP

I am completely uneducated about military uniforms and the like...but that's very interesting....

__________________

Just look out around us, people fightin their wars...
They think they'll be happy when they've settled their scores...
Let's lay down our weapons
and hold us apart
be still for just a minute
try to open our hearts
MORE LOVE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rev It's not what you see, it's that you're looking.

zerodown

JcP, you seem to think protesters are a threat to you and they need to be shut down before they hurt you in some way, am I wrong? Unless you are the one being protested against, I don't see how a protest scares you into forfeiting your rights unto the government. How do you claim to have a working brain when you tell me that I can do whatever I want so long as is not uniting with other people who feel like me about an issue to peacefully tell others about it? Like I said, US citizens are totally hopeless, for americans like you there is nothing wrong with the US, as long as the tv turns on everything is fine.

I won't get into this shit with your politically correct crap, the fact that you think protests are an illegal act("Are you under the impression that it is your right to gather people anywhere you want any time you want regardless of the consequences to the common good, domestic tranquility, and ability for others to function and move without being prevented to do so by your actions?") only shows that americans are not only aware that they have no rights, but they are ok with it as well. Hopeless minds.


“Each time a man stands up for an ideal, or acts to improve the lot of others, or strikes out against injustice, he sends forth a tiny ripple of hope, and crossing each other from a million different centers of energy and daring, those ripples build a current which can sweep down the mightiest walls of oppression and resistance.”

Robert F. Kennedy
Capetown, June 6th 1966

__________________
"I've seen people so poor all they got is money."

We have to learn to unlearn
Its not contradiction, its amendment
Not everything we see is reality
Not everything we hear is the truth
Not everything we're taught helps us grow
~Cultura Profetica

"La locura se lleva en la cabeza y las drogas en los bolsillos"
~Roberto Iniesta

spicoli

To me it seems as though it's happenning very slowly and subtly, this encroachment on civil liberties. If more of us did show up maybe it would be different.

Btw- the anarchists are protesting capitalism. And some others, the planning of our (the world's) economic future without the imput of the people it will impact most. Us!
Sad to think of all the money it cost to shut down city practically, and fill it with law enforcement used to brutalize our own people.

__________________
The only thing that limits human beings is what we think we know. -me

flappy

I don't see permits mentioned in the 1st amendment. However, permits get us, again, off the real subject.
Like it has been said before, you will never convince the "permit guys" of anything. They will always be lurking around defending what has been learned in their life,like we all do. Don't even engage them, it just distracts from the point.
Imagine telling the Sons of Liberty they needed a permit ? The American Revolution was only supported by less than 10% of the population. Most people were perfectly happy being subjects of a King. Kind of hasn't changed now. You see how some here are perfectly content with the current system of government thievery, constant war-making, oppressive and illegal taxes, organised lying by the mass media, 20% inner-city jobless rates and an economy being purposely tanked out for the benefit of the very few. The "permit guys" are happy the cops are clubbing people. It sustains, in their minds, the status quo which keeps them comfortable. They won't change until their personal world gets uncomfortable. Then they might understand why "permits" never was the issue.
("You want answers? Well, so does he" Listen live at infowars.com)

Ego Tripping

I feel the same, but that begs the question...where did they buy their bandanas, supplies and materials to make their protest signs? Furthmore, where do they work? Interesting quagmire, eh?

__________________

spicoli

you'd have to ask them where they bought/got their gear.
the point of this whole thread is, if i'm not mistaken, not what the message is, but it's about the messenger having to right to deliver said message. it really is of NO CONSEQUENCE what the protested issue is, it is a basic civil liberty to speak out and speak up. whether or not the protesters are hypocrites of their cause and wasting their own time is not of my concern. when they are attacked for doing so, i get worried. our freedom as a whole is my concern, and i see it being slowly and methodically stripped away. next they're wanting our guns, those of us that still excersise that right. if they take those away, that's our last physical defense. that's when police state will have new meaning for us.
how is it that we are 'free' if we have to ask 'if' we can protest anything? because, as you know, those permits can be and are often denied.
asking for a permit to protest oppression is kind of ridiculous, wouldn't you say?
the more we limit what people can say, and where they can say it, the more freedom we lose as a society.
the politically correct movement really fucked things up, imo.
this here 'freedom' is costing us dearly.

__________________
The only thing that limits human beings is what we think we know. -me

JcP

completely. did you not read the fact that I, myself, have protested on numerous occasions? My issue is not with protests, my issue is with protests that 1) infringe upon other's rights to carry out their daily business or 2) devolve into violence and/or riots.
Protesting is wonderful...I am not sure where you got the impression I was in any way suggesting protests should be shut down or are a threat to me in any way, as I have said neither.
Unless, of course, you misinterpreted my belief that unlawful (definition in tact) protests should be shut down. In which case, yes. I stand by that statement....but they are two different subjects.
what right(s) have I forfeited?
....zerodown, I urge you to read more carefully before responding. I did not say you shoudn't unite with other people who feel like you and tell others peacefully about your belief. I said protests that are on public domain (like, say, a street in pittsburgh) where your actions prevent others from access and use of that public land is wrong.
If you want to walk around a park somewhere with some friends passing out fliers or talking to people, that's totally cool. If you get a bunch of friends together and stand in that park preventing others from using it, that's not cool.
The entire purpose of the 1939 supreme court ruling and subsequent state laws regarding protests getting permits for use of public land is because it is not your right to commandere public land for your own use, regardless of cause.

hyperbole and unfair. There's a lot I find wrong with this country. And, again, I've been involved in plenty of protests, marches, and social outreach programs based both from my UU church I attend on occasion as well as other programs I've found my way to.
Thinking people shutting down a city is wrong is not synonymous with blind adherance to this country...
Protests are not an illegal act. Protests without permits on public ground (which is for the use of all) that prevents people not associated with your protest to go about their lives IS illegal. there is an extremely distinct difference between the two, and I urge you to think about that before you post again. Painting me as "against protests" is not only absurd, but completely baseless from anything I've said.
funny you quoted a president to support your belief(s) that the laws of the land are unjust. And the "protest laws" in terms of permits were already in place when JFK made this speech. woops?
Rioters and anarchists do not improve the lives of others, they hurt them through financial and social destruction. Injustice is an action that is against the law, and the law is quite clear about what is and is not an appropriate "gathering." Hope is personal and often at odds (Obama was hope for millions, and the antichrist to millions of others),
Opression is also personal, as one man's freedoms are another man's shackles, and resistance therefore is nebulous as well. Osama Bin Laden is "resisting" American cultural oppression...is he included in your noble belief in fighting for what you believe in?

Quotes like this out of context are meaningless...and I love JFK.

__________________

Just look out around us, people fightin their wars...
They think they'll be happy when they've settled their scores...
Let's lay down our weapons
and hold us apart
be still for just a minute
try to open our hearts
MORE LOVE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rev It's not what you see, it's that you're looking.

JcP

the most coherant "opposing" view to mine posted yet. Thank you Spicoli.

a couple of quick replies:

"you" don't have to ask if you can protest anything. You can go right now. organizing a mass protest that prevents the use of public land or leads to a disturbance of the peace, however, requires a permit.

Permits are denied sometimes...and I speak from a non-first-person perspective here, but most of these seem to be either 1) too much of a disturbance (say, 100,000 people wanting to march down Broadway during a business day), or 2) a safety concern (say, 1,000 people wanting to stand outside the U.N. to protest something).

there are no limits to what you can say. There are no limits to where you can say it. There ARE limits on where CROWDS can say something.


lastly, using the G-20 as the primary example is, in a lot of ways, flawed. Was the police response in Pittsburgh over-the-top? Perhaps. But when you look back to Seattle and recognize the pattern of violence that follows the G-(whatever #) summits, I don't blame them.
If the protests were peaceful in the past, I HIGHLY doubt the city would have responded as they did...it's financially burdensome, and leads to viral videos like the OP. (this is a bit unfair, as we have no way of knowing since this reality does not exist, but I think the police response to other mass protests without a history of extreme violence and disturbance supports my claim).
Cause and effect, imho. Anarchists and rioters follow these summits...and the police's job is to protect people and property...people breaking the law (un-approved protests, blocking street traffic, etc) are easy targets to dispurse within their jurisdiction. Unfortunately, I think it's hard to distinguish a rioter from a "peacemonger" until it's too late. So they stop it all.
Again, I'd be more pissed off at those who spoil the pot for those wishing to protest peacefully (with or without a permit for that matter).

I'm also curious as to what new information has been presented to you to warrant your "slowly and methodically" statement. No new laws were passed that I'm aware of...nothing has changed. What new infingement has been put into place?

I do respect your ability to concisely and compellingly state your opinion(s). Thank you for that. Perhaps your response might change my mind on an issue or two (and vice versa).

__________________

Just look out around us, people fightin their wars...
They think they'll be happy when they've settled their scores...
Let's lay down our weapons
and hold us apart
be still for just a minute
try to open our hearts
MORE LOVE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rev It's not what you see, it's that you're looking.

spicoli

jcp- didn't they shut down the town well before any protesters got there? my little bro's school (duquesne) was closed for the days of the summit.

__________________
The only thing that limits human beings is what we think we know. -me

JcP

^^ because of the expected violence and history of these summits. I don't believe they actually "shut down" Pittsburgh like martial law or anything...I honestly don't know. Shutting down the schools seems like a precautionary step by school administrators to prevent riots from keeping parents from their kids or students unable to get away should they be at school/college
i do know my friends in Pittsburgh got the hell out of town because they expected Seattle 2.0

But I am not actually sure what the extent of the "shutdown" was as I am not in Pittsburgh atm...about an hour and a half outside of it.

__________________

Just look out around us, people fightin their wars...
They think they'll be happy when they've settled their scores...
Let's lay down our weapons
and hold us apart
be still for just a minute
try to open our hearts
MORE LOVE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rev It's not what you see, it's that you're looking.