spicoli

i suppose the slow and methodical would apply to the fear the police and military in our country are directed to instill in our citizens. fear of speaking up comes as a result of police/military attacking people only armed with voices and signs.
the patriot act is a reprehensible display of what our govt is capable of.

__________________
The only thing that limits human beings is what we think we know. -me

spicoli

i really grew up looking down on protesters...the media has a way of portraying them as though they are making trouble, and not paving a new path...

__________________
The only thing that limits human beings is what we think we know. -me

JcP

I agree with you about the patriot act.

I guess I don't feel the "fear" because I've never been afraid of speaking my mind...and I've had plenty of situations where speaking my mind was not easy.

I understand your "slow and methodical" now tho. thanks for the clarification.


and per your second post, I've never looked down on protesters because of PROTESTING...even the teabaggers are standing up for what they believe in (even if it's moronic). I look down on members of protests who use it as an excuse to be violent, or who use violence as a tool.
The media does focus on the fringes of any movement...and government too for that matter...because that's where the strongest conflict is...and conflict makes good story (trust me...I majored in theater lol). It's unfortunate, but at least take solace in knowing it works both ways...the worst of the worst of the protesters and the worst of the worst of the police.

__________________

Just look out around us, people fightin their wars...
They think they'll be happy when they've settled their scores...
Let's lay down our weapons
and hold us apart
be still for just a minute
try to open our hearts
MORE LOVE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rev It's not what you see, it's that you're looking.

spicoli

not to take the blame off, but i was raised my an ultra-constervative christian, the media that was spoon fed to me, and of course the sofa-sermons...i've allowed myself to be shaped by other's views, sure. up until the last few years i had a much different belief system...hell since i joined yahooka.
it's only now that i see from the lense of my truth. and my truth says beware, your rights are slipping away.

__________________
The only thing that limits human beings is what we think we know. -me

Makros_01

if it barks like a dog and acts like a dog.. its a dog

and that footage barks like a police state.

__________________
sometimes i'm drunk.

stoneric

I think any time a group of people protest their will be some inconvenience for the citizenry. I'd hate to see every "permit" be denied because of this reason.

zerodown

Clearly there is no way of getting through to you jcp, you strongly believe everything must be done by law, when it is these same corrupt and unjust laws what people are protesting about, but yeah you don't even know what people are protesting about so how can you even begin to understand their causes?

Just because something is law doesn't mean is right. That why laws can and should be amended.

You think people can "protest" in a park by telling others about their cause, but the moment others start listening to the protester and start uniting, then for some magical reason it somehow turns into an illegal act and police have to disband them? WTF? They can protest so long as no one else joins them? I would like to know what kind of protests you've been to with that way of thinking, did you get permits for your protests?

As I said on my first post on this topic, it is quite clear what is going on by watching these videos, to deny it or to defend it only serves as a means to measure how indoctrinated you are, and you jcp, are way on top of the chart.

"For those who stubbornly seek freedom, there can be no more urgent task than to come to understand the mechanisms and practices of indoctrination. These are easy to perceive in the totalitarian societies, much less so in the system of 'brainwashing under freedom' to which we are subjected and which all too often we serve as willing or unwitting instruments."

Also, you seem to have a strong fear of violence, if so, stay home, be safe but let protesters do their thing, they are doing it for us all, even if you don't think so or you can't see it, when groups protest for their rights they are doing it for you too, like it or not, want it or not. if you want to stay home, stay home, if you want to join, join, but whatever you do don't demonize protesters as vandals, you're doing the governments work for free.

Also, have you noticed these protests only turn violent when the police show up? They provoke violence, they don't stop violent protests, they provoke protesters into turning violent, which is two different things.

Did you watch the video I posted about the riot in my town? That was on a thursday, around 100 police were present before anything even started, what they were psychics? they knew before hand a riot was going to take place? or did they know a riot WOULD take place once they showed up and started pushing people around? Thursday after that, the students took to the streets, to protest, I was there, but the media was covering the issue, you know how many cops were there? 3 at most, you know how much violence went on that night? none. Cops stayed away because cameras were rolling, and no one died.

Its hard to explain this to someone who thinks protesters should get permits to protest. How would that go?

Protester: Yeah ummm where do I fill the paper to protest against my government?
government: Ummm yeah right here.

Protester fills papers

DENIED!!!

Yeah that works perfectly eh? you have a RIGHT TO PROTEST, you don't need to ask anyone in order to protest, that is why its hard to explain all this to you, because I probably need a permit to get through to your nugget sized brain.

For someone like you the only book I can think of that would help you understand is Erich Fromm's "escape from freedom". seriously, aside from all the debate and arguing on this topic, go get this book, go during the morning, at that time protesters are sleeping you'll be safe while you go to the mall.

__________________
"I've seen people so poor all they got is money."

We have to learn to unlearn
Its not contradiction, its amendment
Not everything we see is reality
Not everything we hear is the truth
Not everything we're taught helps us grow
~Cultura Profetica

"La locura se lleva en la cabeza y las drogas en los bolsillos"
~Roberto Iniesta

flappy

The second amendment (bearing arms)was put there to back up the first...assembly and speech. No permits required for either ....until recently.

JcP

zerodown, if you are unable to respond directly and instead retreat to your personal attacks and vague overarching conclusions without supporting them with facts, there is no conversation to be had.
I am truly baffled where you keep drawing these wild conclusions about me and what I'm saying.

In your world of "protest whenever, wherever" please explain to me how six guys from the bronx standing in the middle of the west side highway should be legal?
thousands upon thousands of people will be unable to get home. Is it those 6 men's right to do this?
How about a thousand people standing outside of a theater, shouting during a performance, destroying the show for the people who have paid for their tickets?


i have zero interest in following you from post to post, replying to each one of your new examples or random accusations about me, only to then have you not reply to me and instead post yet another ridiculous post.

Quit judging me, as you do not know me. You are more than welcome to critique my post(s) and what I say in them (and I urge you to do so! Please respond to my response above this one!), but trying to paint me as some blind "scared" sheep is not only unfactual, but ironic.
There is no fear for me in this situation. Who's the one screaming the sky is falling? YOU ARE. Smoke a bowl, chill the fuck out, and if you WANT, I'd love for you to answer my questions.
If not, your next post will not be replied to...but since I believe you gave me the last word in the music thread, this one is all yours.

__________________

Just look out around us, people fightin their wars...
They think they'll be happy when they've settled their scores...
Let's lay down our weapons
and hold us apart
be still for just a minute
try to open our hearts
MORE LOVE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rev It's not what you see, it's that you're looking.

JcP

right on.

Are your folks still alive? If so, I'd be curious to know when the media became ultra-liberal to ultra-conservatives...

And for fuck's sake THANK YOU for saying "lens of MY truth." Debating people who claim to hold objective truth on an opinion-based subect is infuriating.

I hear you, spicoli, and I indeed DID protest the Patriot Act and continue to bring up my objections whenever it comes up in coversation with friends who are in favor of it.

I just think in a growing society, if laws don't change with the times, you get archaic systems that don't work.
Jews don't stone people who sleep in too late on the Sabbath anymore, even tho their original document says they should.

the right to protest is a sacred one (as is the right to own a gun), but both have to be seen in context. Right to bear arms was about muskets...which took forever to reload...was for an agrarian society without massive megacities and focused populations.
I disagree with any attempt to outlaw guns, even though I have no interest in ever owning one. I do not see how gun registration and safety features are infringing upon your right to own a gun. You can still go buy one...you just have to go through a process that makes this "right" functional in a modern era.

Likewise, the first amendment. I repeat my example given to zerodown...without assembly laws, what is to prevent six guys from completely shutting down NYC by standing arm in arm across the George Washington Bridge?

Anyway, I agree with your overall sentiment, I just think, perhaps, I see a different REASON, which lessons my doom-and-gloom feeling about it.

__________________

Just look out around us, people fightin their wars...
They think they'll be happy when they've settled their scores...
Let's lay down our weapons
and hold us apart
be still for just a minute
try to open our hearts
MORE LOVE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rev It's not what you see, it's that you're looking.

Peace seeker

I consider america a worse police state than China or Iran. I m sure in eother china or iran, cops only interfere with the masses when the gvmnt is threatened from mass protests. In the US, a cop doesnt need to be provoked or anything to shoot you with a taser gun so you cna "behave". Raise your voice to a cop for getting an unfair ticket and chances are you will get tazed to "Come down sir".

If i get a ticket here, i can call the cop every name in the book for about half hr (and yell on his face) and he will consider it "very normal". He might even apologise to me for giving me a ticket.


in the US its proly worse.

If u protest u will be tazed, tear gased, hosed down, beaten and (lately) you will be microwaved by that giant truck with a satelitte dish-type of thing that sends enormous amounts of hot microwaves to protestors. In simple words you ll be nuked.

Like a TV dinner


from the laaaand of the freeeeeeeee......

spicoli

the personal attacks on each other don't get the problems fixed. we don't have to agree on the issues, we just have to agree that we have the right not to agree, and to speak out about it. if more people would actually engage each other IN PERSON, in PUBLIC VENUES, we would actually see what the majority is really in favor of. in person in public venues is where change happens. but we are scared into staying home and typing it up on a computer. the 'inconvenience' of not getting home in time, or to whereever you may be going might just give some people who don't otherwise try to change things time to think about why they are really being held up. it's always going to be inconvenient for some when trying to invoke change. hell it might even invoke some change and passion in them to try to make a difference. we all need to care more about where this country is going. honestly, i don't want to get gassed and shot at and noised out, but how will any difference be made if we don't get out there and shout from the roof tops what we need as THE PEOPLE. imo, my govt has done a pretty shitty job representing me so far, and i've done nothing to change that. i'm taking responsibility for that NOW.
i just can't wrap my head around people being arrested and physically attacked for walking down public streets with signs, or even no signs, just walking in groups, no matter their numbers. it does not jive.

__________________
The only thing that limits human beings is what we think we know. -me

spicoli

jeez i sound like i think i have all the answers, but i don't...i just know something needs to change.

__________________
The only thing that limits human beings is what we think we know. -me

JcP

I agree something has to change. I just don't see the validity in allowing people the right to do whatever they want regardless of the effect on the rest of us.
I am not a legal scholar and do not know the intricacies of the permit law(s), but I do see the problem in allowing anyone to protest anywhere at any time.
people protesting the "color pink" as a previous frivolous example in this thread, holding up the entire city of NY by blocking traffic, to me, is contrary to the purpose of protest.

The definition of protest is "To object to, especially in a formal statement." I am not sure if this "right" is being infinged upon in any way by limiting where people can physically manifest themselves. Protest is not synonymous with marching or gathering.
The other part of the 1st amendment (peacefully assemble), however, does deal with this action. And you can make a case for the belief that this right IS being infringed upon by permit laws... I just disagree with the extent to which the term "peacefully" can be applied. "peace" and preventing the use of public land, to me, are at odds with one another. And, therefore, I see nothing wrong with requiring physical protests on PUBLIC land to have to get permits from the state/city/federal government.

Anyway, in conclusion, I agree with you things have to change...I just think they have to change on both sides. Protesters need to distance themselves from violence and crying "police state" when the police enforce the law to ensure domestic tranquility, and the police need to find a way to stop treating everyone as if they are about to riot, even if SOME of the members of a group are indeed doing so...in essence, to stop profiling.
Perhaps that's the compromise and non-arrogant solution to this debate I (according to zerodown) should be unable to agree to, lol.

__________________

Just look out around us, people fightin their wars...
They think they'll be happy when they've settled their scores...
Let's lay down our weapons
and hold us apart
be still for just a minute
try to open our hearts
MORE LOVE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Rev It's not what you see, it's that you're looking.

zerodown

Hopeless... God save you America, cause you can't by yourself...

__________________
"I've seen people so poor all they got is money."

We have to learn to unlearn
Its not contradiction, its amendment
Not everything we see is reality
Not everything we hear is the truth
Not everything we're taught helps us grow
~Cultura Profetica

"La locura se lleva en la cabeza y las drogas en los bolsillos"
~Roberto Iniesta

flappy

"The high office of President has been used to foment a plot to destroy the American's freedom, and before I leave office I must inform the citizen of his plight."
--John F. Kennedy, at Columbia University, 10 days before his assassination.

supermarket :)

AMEN.

I used to be a "conspiracy theory" nut too, like the original poster - until I starting ACTUALLY studying history (Not from school, OR from stupid conspiracy websites) , and learning what is REALLY going on in the world.

This is nothing new. This is nothing to be alarmed about. For fucks sake - I didnt see the authorities hurting anybody.

I saw a bunch of loud mouth trouble starters, being kept in line.


Sorry to be frank - but really - why would the police NOT be there to make sure nothing bad happens?

History Fact #73843: Sometimes, when people gather together and are very passionate about something, they committ crimes or assaults.

kameelyun

...thanks for the laugh along with the display of ignorance.

Funny, when I studied real history, I learned that in both ancient and modern times, relatively small criminal factions of people in key places of governments can very secretly achieve some very evil things, such as political assassinations, staged terror attacks, and CIA overthrows of regimes unfriendly to American "interests."

Ancient times: Nero's men set Rome ablaze, and blamed it on the Christians.

Modern times:

The Nazis set fire to the german parliament building, the Reichstag, blamed it on "communist terrorists," arrest many communists and pass anti civil liberties laws (The Enabling Act, not unlike our Patriot Act) and shortly thereafter open up the Dachau camp. Years later the nazis dressed one of their own in a Polish uniform, sent him to the Polish German border, and shot him, creating the appearance that Poland had dared attack the Reich; this was the false flag to launch the Euro part of WWII.

FDR, it is now clearly established, knew Pearl Harbor was coming and deliberately did nothing to stop it because American support for entering the war was dismal up to that point.

Gulf of Tonkin, a fabricated event to get us into Vietnam. Never really happened.

Operation Northwoods: Never carried out because JFK rejected it, but senior military generals would have, if JFK had approved, staged terror attacks in American cities and more, to blame on Cuba as an excuse to overthrow Fidel.

Operation Gladio: Attacking civilians to justify greater security, a NATO operation with heavy CIA involvement.

These are just a few of many things that are declassified and on the record, not theory. The catch: they don't get declassified until decades later when few if any people would actually protest about it; Northwoods for example was 1962 and not declassified in 2001, only to be given one mention on the national news before going down the collective memory hole.

Oh, and as for 9/11: The case for a false flag operation gets stronger by the year. You're probably not aware that active explosive material has been found in the WTC dust, this has been scientifically analyzed and has passed peer review in a scientific journal. Until another group of scientists challenges these findings and the challenge passes peer review, then the paper's findings are unchallenged in the scientific community. This serves to function in tandem with the fact that almost 1000 architectural and engineering professionals have signed the ae911truth.org petition which unequivocally rejects the official explanation of the WTC collapse. These people have the expertise, though truth be told it's really not more complicated than high school physics with regard to those building collapses, particularly Newton's Second Law of Motion.

Run along, history (and physics) lesson over.

"Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance." - Albert Einstein

__________________
"The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

kameelyun

"I know you guys can hear me, because my mom just sent me a text message telling me she can hear me on NBC News!"

__________________
"The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

kameelyun

Okay, Mr. Apologist For Totalitarianism:

What do you call this?



By the way, even NBC news acknowledged that actual violent protesters are extremely few and far between at this G 20, with only a very small number of smashed windows, etc. Even the corporate media acknowledged that the protests are overwhelmingly peaceful and that the armed authorities (over 4,000) FAR FAR outweigh the number of protesters.

The "loud mouth trouble starter" and iconic anti war protester Cindy Sheehan was gassed and just got out of the ER. She just posted it on her facebook wall.

__________________
"The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off." - Gloria Steinem