John F. Kerry

i cant believe u guys are sitting here going on about the need for a "benevolent centrally controlled government".


generalissimo stalin would be proud.

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Nasa under Obama

Ego Tripping

Actually, we're talking about the lack thereof if people would take responsibility.

But we're not there, so we get the government we deserve...ie..we're irresponsible and thus so is our government.

But I have to admit j, you truly are a pro on how to twist what someone is saying and pontificate your point. O'Reilly would be proud.

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Hedons

Let me get this straight.

They're going to pass a health care plan written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that hasn't read it but exempts themselves from it, to be signed by a president that also hasn't read it and who smokes, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes, all to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that's nearly broke.

What could possibly go wrong?

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John F. Kerry

^ but hedons its cool because their 10 year predictions say it will be good, except that in 2 years when they revise the predictions to it actually being terrible they will be able to use the prior 10 year prediction as an excuse despite the fact that it was inaccurate for anymore than 2 years ( aka less than 20% of the advertised time it was supposed to predict for).... somehow it will make everything perfect, and more people will get better quality health care for less money .

its basically the hillary clinton "obama cellestial choirs will ring" speech redux

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Nasa under Obama

Prophet Saddam

With keeping the status quo? Lots.

Hedons

What constitutional authority does the federal government have to require “the people” to buy healthcare insurance?

-Hedons

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verklingen

none, but what constitutional authority does a person refusing healthcare insurance have to require "the people" to pay for his negligence should he require emergency medical attention? and where in the constitution is requiring insurance forbidden? you don't need authority for things not expressly prohibited by the constitution (ever heard of a guy named thomas jefferson?). health insurance didn't even exist the time it was written, but now it's one of the biggest challenges we face.

i welcome this as a proactive strategy -- the first i've seen our leadership take in quite a while -- for alleviating the troubles of our current system. if people still haven't thought it through enough to see the rationale in all this, i'd like to finally hear some alternatives

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stateofkane

Alternative is to let the medical system be private with no government involvement. I have no qualms about letting old people die off as they should, and sick children being denied health care if their parents can't afford it.

Since when was health care a right? It is a service no different from getting your car fixed or getting a spa treatment. Food should be free before fucking health care is made free.

And I wouldn't have much of a problem if basic foods were made free. Don't we all need that more?

stateofkane

It still works better than communism or socialism. We could have a stronger middle class if it weren't for Barack Obama trying to screw everything up.

verklingen

so you're suggesting we stay the course and let the cost of care continue to go up, the quality of care continue to go down, all while insurance companies rake in record profits while denying policies to sick people and preventing their policy holders from receiving treatments and medications? how would we, as a country, benefit from that? what problems would it solve?

health care isn't a right, but lack of health care is a liability.

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stoneric

The middle class started getting fucked long before Obama took office. Go back to when the B actor was president. And any pure form of government would be utopia so you can't compare the flawed systems that have been in place throughout history.

stateofkane

Health care costs would go down if we scrapped medicare and medicaid. If we turned away the jerks who don't pay their medical bills then quality would go up. Of course that would be cruel so make everyone wait a long time in the ER, even people who pay every penny of their bill.

Ric, I agree that Ronald fucked this country over almost more than Bush did. I'm just mad that Obama isn't restraining his spending, thus putting a nail in america's coffin.

Hedons

That is correct.




None.




It isn't.




Yes, I've have heard of Thomas Jefferson.

Ever hear of the 9th Amendment?

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."


How about the 10th Amendment?

“The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”


Supreme Court Case UNITED STATES v. SPRAGUE made explicitly clear the idea that the federal government is limited only to the powers granted in the Constitution?

Here is an excerpt from the ruling...

Appellees assert this language demonstrates that the people reserved to themselves powers over their own personal liberty, and that the legislatures are not competent to enlarge the powers of the federal government in that behalf. They deduce from this that the people never delegated to the Congress the unrestricted power of choosing the mode of ratification of a proposed amendment. But the argument is a complete non sequitur. The fifth article does not purport to delegate any governmental power to the United States, nor to withhold any from it. On the contrary, as pointed out in Hawke v. Smith (No. 1), supra, that article is a grant of authority by the people to Congress, and not to the United States. It was submitted as part of the original draft of the Constitution to the people in conventions assembled. They deliberately made the grant of power to Congress in respect to the choice of the mode of ratification of amendments. Unless and until that Article be changed by amendment, Congress must function as the delegated agent of the people in the choice of the method of ratification.

The Tenth Amendment was intended to confirm the understanding of the people at the time the Constitution was adopted, that powers not granted to the United States were reserved to the states or to the people. It added nothing to the instrument as originally ratified and has [282 U.S. 716, 734] no limited and special operation, as is contended, upon the people's delegation by article 5 of certain functions to the Congress."





Correct.



All this aside...

The purpose of my original question "What constitutional authority does the federal government have to require “the people” to buy health care insurance?" was to bring into the discussion what will be coming next once health care legislation passes into law. It will be ferociously challenged on the grounds of whether it is constitutional or not. I guess I don't know why I even brought up the matter. As Joseph Sobran noted, "The Constitution poses no serious threat to our form of government."

Sorry for the waste of time.

-Hedons



"The Constitution has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist.”
-Lysander Spooner

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verklingen

i agree that we're far away from the republic of states we started as, but what i don't understand is why it's being brought up at this point in time and in contention of this topic when the goal of the public healthcare option is to help people (40+ million without insurance, many more with insurers unwilling to grant them proper care) and control costs.

with all this said, what's the constitutional alternative? having all the states offer a public health insurance option? sounds unnecessarily complex to me, but it's at least a respectable position. i'm getting tired of hearing a bunch of whining with no alternatives.

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421

i love how people love to flip about obama wanting to give people the option of having this one aspect of their lives "controlled" by the govt. what good are our lives if we can't even be healthy enough to enjoy them? the whole debate has just been a big partisan mess, people can't seem to think for themselves and form their own opinion on health care, they just go by whatever the leaders of their parties say. strange times

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