Sugar420

sure questions are fine, but intellectual and moral integrity dont hinge on asking or trying to answer every imaginary possibility, you have to draw the line somewhere.

Grieves

The motives/actions are always so much more interesting than the results...and the actual point of learning history...I don't give a fuck how many people died in ww2, I do however care what drove the players in the war to do what they did...

__________________

stoneric

I think he pointed that out himself. I don't think questioning the moon landing is so far out there and the dude certainly hasn't lost my respect.

stateofkane

Even if we found out the government was 100% behind 9/11, people have become so spineless and sheep that I bet there wouldn't be a revolution.

Look at the response every time some things comes to light like the CIA secret prisons and knowledge about the lies leading up to the Iraq war.

kameelyun

^^^It's a matter of how long it takes truth to become mainstream. 40+ years later, upwards of 75% of the country believes there was a conspiracy involved with the JFK assassination. There hasn't been a revolt though, because... well, because so many decades have passed that it's like "Who cares?" Generally people don't revolt until there's no food in the stores.

To tell you the truth though, I think the peaceful revolution has already been happening, this entire decade: the information awareness revolution. I personally would prefer NOT to see a violent revolution in the 1776 sense. (Though I do love Alex Jones' line "The answer to 1984 is 1776.") Every time someone watches the film "America Freedom to Fascism" on youtube and wakes up to the truth about the federal reserve and income tax, a small piece of the revolution is taking place. People can't demand change until they are aware of what needs to change. People have increasingly grown disaffected by what they perceive to be a shallow, often propaganda-like corporate news media which thrives on sensationalism and ratings, driven on by Hollywood gossip paired with a few minor street crimes... meanwhile the alternative internet media, without the millions of $$$ in corporate sponsorship, goes where the corporate media doesn't dare tread.

Thank you for that level headed response. I even made it quite clear that I'm not "sold" on the moon landings being a hoax, but that I was exploring it; the photo I posted in my OP certainly heightened my skepticism, but that was why I was asking for other people's opinions. Boy, some people hate it when you ask questions!

__________________
"The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

zerodown

Though I don't truly believe the moon landing to be a hoax, mainly due to lack of curiosity to even care if it was or not a fake, I understand Kameelyun in that the ones who oppose him are only saying "I know more than you, it happened".

He even posted a video that was dismissed without even watching it, not that I watched it, but Im just saying, at least watch it before dismissing it as false, that is just ignorant.

__________________
"I've seen people so poor all they got is money."

We have to learn to unlearn
Its not contradiction, its amendment
Not everything we see is reality
Not everything we hear is the truth
Not everything we're taught helps us grow
~Cultura Profetica

"La locura se lleva en la cabeza y las drogas en los bolsillos"
~Roberto Iniesta

Flamingnun

holowhat?

__________________

kameelyun

Holocaust "denial?"

__________________
"The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

kitch

if yer over 15 I feel bad for you

__________________

kameelyun

There are many things to be revised about the holocaust; I quoted facts that have been revised by mainstream scholars yet I am somehow guilty of "revisionism."

I wouldn't really call the propaganda stories like the lampshades a non-sequiteur. Or the human soap, or the shrunken heads. These things, along with homicidal gas chambers, are some of the central features taught to me in high school as to what makes the holocaust "more" unique than any other mass murder in history. Shootings, starvations, forced labor, are not unique to the Holocaust, but the gas chamber, lampshades, soap etc. stories are.

You have to remember, after the good guys, the Allies, bombed the shit out of German cities, in addition to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and in addition to the torturing of Japanese Americans by our soldiers, it is natural that to minimize such crimes, we have to be told that what the Nazis did to their victims was infinitely worse... so if there was much killing and barbarity going on on all sides, how could the Victors make the Nazis seem infinitely worse? Well, they didn't just kill people, they made lampshades out of them!!!!!!

And it's not even a matter of lampshades and soap, it's a question of gas chambers which were once thought to exist at many camps but no longer, as conceded by mainstream holocaust scholars like Lipstadt.

I think that we would certainly agree that if "only" 1 or 2 million Jews perished, and even if they perished through conventional means (i.e. no gas chambers), Hitler is still a monster. To be uprooted from your home and community because of your ethnicity is already a crime against humanity imo. However, it's not revisionists who insist that the number MUST be lower. Rather, it is the traditionalists, who are usually, yes, Zionists and members of the Israel lobby, who insist that the sacred "six million" number MUST NOT be challenged.

You should check out the first 5 minutes of this video Buchenwald: A Dumb Dumb Portrayal of Evil which describes the allied "Psyche Warfare" propaganda campaign with regard to Nazi atrocities at the end of the war. Just five minutes of it, it won't hurt you! Be curious, not afraid!

__________________
"The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

kameelyun

Oh come on, now, I love a good in depth holocaust discussion!

So without the lampshades, soap, gas chambers, and the six million figure, what are we left with? A tragedy but not a unique tragedy. An example of mass murder but not history's most unique mass murder.

As someone else in my David Cole thread pointed out: Would you rather we keep embellishing the holocaust? Would it be a shame to hand the title of "greatest mass murderer in history" to Stalin, Mao or Pol Pot, rather than Adolf Hitler? Would it mean you'd have to rewrite your system of comparison of all things that are evil? Or is it easier to just say "nah, let me be, it's easier."

__________________
"The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

kitch

Lordy lordy look who's turning 4040!

__________________

kameelyun

It is ironic that you are referring to my holocaust discussion as a "conspiracy theory." Even mainstream holocaust scholars have revised down the numbers, the gas chambers at 16 of 22 camps, the lampshades, the soap, the shrunken heads, and other stories. Of course, such rational discussion is limited to below-the-radar, quiet academic circles.

But, since in your response to my previous post, you are labeling mainstream historians (I'm only the messenger) "conspiracy theorists," I'll bite; let's wander into the conspiracy aspect to it all.

If you go on television and say the same things that mainstream historians have quietly acknowledged, the Zionist lobby will be at your throat: You MUST believe in the hallowed six million number, and you MUST believe that it was done with gas chambers!

Bishop Richard Williamson gave the following interview on Swedish TV. His country of residence was Argentina. After this interview the Argentinian government deported him out of the country and to his birth place of England. What did the Bishop say that could be so threatening to people that he deserved to be deported?





And yes, the reason for the distortion and exaggeration of the extent of the Nazis' war crimes was to create a sacred myth that would place the suffering of Jewish people above that of all other victims of WW2 and thus lend support both externally and internally to the new American colonial outpost, Israel, which was formed at the expense of the lives of those who had previously inhabited the "promised land" which Yahweh apparently promised the Jews 2000+ years earlier...

And the official story of 9/11 is indeed a conspiracy theory. A conspiracy is an agreement in secret by two or more people to do something illegal and/or immoral. A conspiracy theory, therefore, is a theory or hypothesis as to who is responsible for that conspiracy. The official conspiracy theory of 9/11 is one such theory, and it is an "outlandish" conspiracy theory at that; it has not one shred of evidence to support it. Remember Fall 2001? We're gonna get Osama bin Laden "dead or alive?" "Smoke him out of his cave?" Well even the FBI itself, speaking a bit of truth between the lines, even admits that there is "no hard evidence linking bin Laden to 9/11." We charged him for the 1998 bombing of our African Embassy! We indicted him for that! Why not 9/11?!

__________________
"The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off." - Gloria Steinem

kameelyun

Hey JcP, I've checked out a couple mythbusters clips on youtube. They do a good job debunking the "multiple light sources" and "flag waving in the wind" claims. That Adam Savage guy is pretty cool.

Believe it or not I do look at all sides more than people think.

I guess it is possible for 9/11 to be an inside job but the moon landings still be real!

I still stand by my observation that the close up of the lunar module looks like paper and curtain rods though.

__________________
"The truth will set you free. But first, it will piss you off." - Gloria Steinem