stoneric

If you would have backed up "the neda part" with facts, I wouldn't have said anything. I only point it out because it is this type of bullshit that we went to war with Iraq over. Say it often enough and it sticks. And you say it often.

SageTree

I just wanted to say that I thought that was a really good opinion.

Except if I let you believe that too often you'll probably get this crazy idea that you could lead a whole country with your fascist idea like some....uh.... fascist who have spread their..... fascism....all over.... yea... and other scary stuff....too... watch out for ALL those people too....seen one seen em all.....

So basically... yea... they could use it for weapons....

yea.. fascist

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John F. Kerry

the problem is not some fantasy the problem is what is actually happening, not being rude

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Nasa under Obama

SageTree

What is the difference between nightmare and fantasy? What Is REALLY happening here J right now, not in either side of dream land?

How do YOU know so much about Iran??? Are you... omg.... now I know why you have so many inside ties to what is really going on in terrorism 101 !!!!

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John F. Kerry

there are many ways to know a lot about iran... books for one, documentaries for another. check out rageh in iran (on torrent sites, or just search for bbc iran and ull find lots of good things, or search for our childrens childrens war, another good doc about iran, or pretty much just type in iran and see what u find, theres loads of stuff, much of it very information oriented to the point that some might consider it academic and boring, but not me )

i never said a single thing about the iranian people except that i supported them and thought that people like neda deserved credit for fighting against an oppressive regime just like people across eastern europe and china did in the 80s, the eastern europeans got freedom, the chineese got shot at, - which course did iran follow?


so is it any wonder that china is the only security council country not demanding stronger action against iran?

some people dont seem to realize (not u, the anti war liberals) that dealing with iran toughly now is to AVOID WAR LATER, not to be puffchested and arrogant and mission acomplished republican style. we have waited 10 years almost patiently as they (the supreme leader and ahmadinejad) just dance around and lie to us and say they want regimes to dissapear from history and saying that mass murders of the 20th century didnt happen, its just ridiculous, it doesnt belong in the civilized world....when saudi arabia doesnt stand up to defend you anymore, u know u have a fucked up country your dealing with .... and iran under the ayatollahs and ahmadinejad IS fucked up.

the people that some of u are talking about - lets see- what are the doing- they are demanding an end to the corrupt regime that rigs every election and uses a fake mandate to bring their ancient 5000 year old nation into a war with the rest of the world- the persian people dont want that, and so i dont see how u equate supporting ahmadinejad with supporting them.

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Nasa under Obama

John F. Kerry

a few months ago i posted an article about how iraq is now ranked the 3rd best democracy in the middle east by gulf news, a dubai based newspaper.


now iraq is still a shithole, bombings ,e tc.

but still, the fact that they are free, can vote, and have a reasonble expectation that the US and its might wont let them fall down the drain and will stand up to defend them to some extent for years to come.... those facts make iraq the 3rd best democracy IN THE REGION.


so as much as people like me dont want to start up the war drums and get the chicken hawks loaded again, it doesnt take a pro war person to see that in the mid run, if not long run, iraq is gonna be way better off and way better for the region than it ever could have been under saddam. why? for 2 reasons- 1 because the people wanted freedom (as the iranians do now, and as evidenced by iraqs reconcilliation to a large extent and elections of multi party parliaments in iraq) , and 2. because the US stood up to defeat an evil regime that was dangling by a thread, and that its own people wanted out of.


now thats the side i dont want to talk about because we all remember how shit looked in 2005-6, but im just saying, its clear that iraq in the long run wont just be good for america or become an american colony- its going to be (thanks to us , the brits and the rest of the coalition) a free arab islamic democracy, and the most populous one on earth, and thats simply a fact. and a full accounting of whether the iraqi people would have been better off if we had just done what we have done so far with iran, must certainly take into account the hundreds of thousands of civilians dead from the war, but also the fact that the rest of them will go on and live in a world that is better than they ever could have dreamed would be possible for them....

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Nasa under Obama

verklingen

hey j i've got another prediction for you

as good as you say iraq is now, i predict that -- within the same timeframe -- iran will be even greater precisely BECAUSE we will allow iranians to take hold of their own destiny without interfering. that place is as ripe for a (re)revolution as any has ever been, and it will set the course for other nations in the region to follow if they wish.

sanctions don't hurt the government of a country. . . they hurt its people. aren't the people suffering enough under such an oppressive regime? you're more concerned about getting what you want now and avoiding war later (for no other reason than to save face) than you are eager to give iranians more opportunities, and it's selfishness like that which continues to drag our global civilization through the mud

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“Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.”

SageTree

Well thanks J those are the two most half on topic posts I've ever read from you. Especially the first one.

Hopefully all the freedom fighters don't get branded terrorist should they succeed in their movement. I guess as long as they are fighting for the 'right thing' they won't get put on any list this side of the Atlantic.

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stoneric

The problem with our hypocritical foreign policy is that there are far more opressive regimes in the region and they are our allies. We don't give a flying fuck about the "neda's" of the world unless we can use them to futher our agenda.

Dealing "toughly" with Iran means cutting off 40% of their energy needs. That in itself is an act of war. Iran was willing to deal in 2003 but bush and cheney would have none of it so I don't know who was doing the dancing around. So what if they say they want regime change? Do we have that market cornered? And who gives a fuck if ahmandinejad denies the holocaust. I could give a shit if he denies there is a Tuesday, it certainly doesn't disqualify them from belonging to the civilized world. When did saudi arabia stand up for Iran?

Rigged elections? There's that hypocrisy again. We support the 2nd most corrupt government in the world in Afghanistan. Only Somalia stands in the way, but they shouldn't even count. Compared to Afghanistan's recent joke of an election, Iran's looks squeaky clean. We also support Egypts oppressive regime, that one could only imagine how they would quell any demonstrations, but they play nice with israel so that's ok.

stoneric

3rd best democracy in the region = 5th most corrupt government in the world, and again, that includes Somalia.

You got something right. Iraq is still a shithole.

Reconciliation? Even the neocons don't claim that.

We got rid of Iran's enemy, how can the region be better off?

Comparing populations, there would be around 50 million refugees in the US if some benevolent country had come in and liberated us, and anywhere from 1 to 11 million dead. Plus we'd be walled off by religous affiliation, we have millions desease ridden, woman's rights would had been set back 30 years and from the sky the country would look like one big cesspool. But of course we'd be better off.

"if we had just done what we have done so far with iran, must certainly take into account the hundreds of thousands of civilians dead from the war, but also the fact that the rest of them will go on and live in a world that is better than they ever could have dreamed would be possible for them"

^Don't get more arrogant than that.

Oh yeah, I forgot. Those 500,000(mostly children) that died during the 12 years of sanctions would have equalled over 5 million in th US.

stoneric

Right. It ranks right up there with Iraq, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Egypt, Jordan......all on the recieving end of US aid.