John F. Kerry

when this poll was recently asked, 4/5s of people said no.


now to me thats utterly shocking and indicative of the complacency and relative comfort people today live in.



jefferson, who wanted our nation to expand across the continent, and to spread the liberty that comes from democracy first to the entirety of america, and later to the world, how could he not be pleased at what is going on today?


ben franklin- who was interested in entertainment and information and newspapers and science, how could ben not be astounded by the internet and the amazing tech that has connected the entire world ?


james madison and alexander hamilton- how could they not be proud of the fact that our country finally ended slavery and even elected a black president, that we grappled with our demons for centuries and thru wars and sc decisions we became a far more equal and just society where people really do have a chance at life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.


george washington who hoped that petty differences wouldnt stymie our national action how could he not be proud of the way the us saved the world from evil both in the cold war and in ww2....


each of the founding fathers lived at a time when things were hardly even close to perfect, and yet they enshrined ideals that they knew they couldnt even hope to meet in their lifetimes....


today, those same ideals are there, and the quest to reach them is closer than ever before....


the entire world is united behind wanted to grant its people universal rights, the same rights espoused in the american constituion.....


....technology is rendering various problems obsolete, just as jefferson and others hoped it would...



....if i think about the founding fathers whom i have studied a lot about, i cant help but think they would be amazed and pleased with how their experiment went.


our country has changed the world, made it free and prosperous and safe, and done so with barely 30 amendments to the document those men wrote 300 years ago....


france has gone thru 5 republics in that time, america is the worlds oldest democracy....the enlightenment thinkers of the 1600s' logic still holds true today, the seperation of powers keeps any one from getting too powerful and keeps our ego in check....


....in short, i think the founding fathers would be pleased beyond measure with the society we live in today.


franklin would absolutely love the internet, and would start his own blog and website


hamilton would probably have a bunch of business ventures in dubai and se asia.... jefferson would be able to use spectral imaging to analyze animal bones and plant species to an amazing degree and washington would no doubt go to home depot all the time to buy cool stuff to fix up mount vernon.



the founders lived in an era of intense partisanship- the federalists thought the antifederalists would dissolve the country into chaos... the antifederalists thought that big government would take over and dominate the intimate parts of their lives.... none of that has changed in the slightest...


but still, the "marketplace of ideas" is free, open, and ready for anybody with an opinion to express it, over the internet, and try to have it stand on its own 2 feet.



i think the people who say the founders wouldnt approve of america dont understand who the founders were.....


what do u guys think about this?

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Mafoo

i think theyd be pissed off because of the increasing entaglement of our country with the world at large.

they were all about isolationism. we stopped isolationism and havent been at peace since.

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PLUR
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return

The Rev

Hamilton, and the other Federalists would be pleased at the expansion of central government power, and the relative success of the Federal Reserve compared with the First and Second Banks of the United States. Jefferson, on the other hand, would be appalled at the deterioration of states' rights. All of them would be aghast at the degree of taxation, and government debt. They would ALL think the advancements in technology were cool as hell.



The Rev

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John F. Kerry

^ i agree rev, thats pretty much my point, that even tho they would be pissed at certain things they didnt like ideologically , they were pissed about those same things in 1775 and i dont think they expected those disagreements to be solved....

the would be amazed at all the good stuff, i think they would be flabbergasted that america became the world superpower and saved the world from the nazis etc.... i think they would be amazed that french and europeans have a romantic view of teh wild west and cowboys, and they would be amazed at how our film industry exports dreams to the world and our tech industry exports miracles to the world..... in their time if u wanted sophisticated stuff u had to import it from england.


.....its like, i think they would recognize the substantial problems we face, and would respond that we have a system that is more than up to the challenge.... they would say , look how bad things looked for washington at valley forge... u americans these days have it easy....


its the interplay between having qualms and recognizing all the good that i think they would do..... and ultmately , pragmatic founders like franklin , would, i think, be amazed and pleased and think that if america can go 300 years with such crazy problems facing us, that the future indeed bodes well for our country, and thru our leadership, the world.

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John F. Kerry

the openness of our society is simply manifested by the intense disagreements people have.... that seems to me to be a fact of a government where various groups have their free say....it might mean that people disagree, but the disagreement can continuously be reargued and requestioned and ultimately that is by far the best way to refine truths.


the best way to find out what the best way is , is to fight about it. and the best way to fight about it is to be able to fight freely.

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The Rev

Franklin would LOVE all the cougars.



The Rev

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HTAM

Tell me this thread isn't inspired by...

Founding Fathers wouldn't beam in 2010: survey :: CHICAGO SUN-TIMES :: Nation

Opinion Dynamics Corporation has conducted poll after poll for FOX News.

The Rev

I think none of them would have the slightest idea of what to make of the modern media. There is so much at work there that was unknown to them. Not just the technology, but the subtle (and not so subtle) use of psychology to manipulate the masses.

The degree to which our liberties have been eroded would offend them all, as well. Driver's licenses, social security numbers, taxes on literally everything, bureaucracy at every turn, would have turned their stomachs.

I think what they tried to do with the Constitution, and separation of powers, was the best thing they could have to limit the reach of political ambition; and I think they would be saddened that it ulitimate did not succeed in limiting the growth of government power. But even in their time, the breakdown had already begun. The Alien and Sedition acts, signed into law by John Adams, violated the First Amendment as blatantly as one could, and that was less than 10 years after ratification.

I think the Internet would amaze them all. I think guys like Thomas Paine would be astounded by the ease in which people can disseminate their views, and the huge power this gave everyone.

As for the Nazis, the Soviets, the growth of Imperialism in the late 19th century, the transformations of the Industrial Revolution, and all the other stuff that happened since their time; I think that stuff would defy their ability to imagine. They had no way of forseeing the extent of the transformation this world would undergo. The degrees of evil that it would spawn, such as the mass genocide of WWII or the wholesale slaughter of both World Wars, would boggle them.



The Rev

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Waves

i hate when people talk about what the founding fathers would think or do in todays world

the founding fathers political stances were a radical reaction to the monarchy they had to go through in england and alot of the shit they deemed completely normal and ok would be seen as completely insane and/or immoral in todays world.

like slavery.

they werent super-heros and they didnt hold any moral high ground. they were just smart dudes who were reacting to the world around them. what does it matter what they would think about todays world? we have much smarter people capable of thought on a much higher and civil level.

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Mafoo

not to mention they were the wealthiest, white, upperclass landowners. one thing i can say, i think theyd be down for the US to grow hemp for fuel, food, and fiber.

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PLUR
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and there you will long to return

John F. Kerry

hmmm thats kinda an interesting thought waves, but dont u think part of the reason we have such smart people today is because science was able to flourish for centuries unencumbered by religious dogma?


the founders knew that seperation of church and state was important, they may not have been able to predict all the amazing things we would discover, but they understood how to set up a system that would encourage that type of knowledge.

they werent omniscient, but they did know a lot about governments, they had read the greek roman and european histories and knew gleamed some pretty amazing conclusions from em-


its not like they accidentally came up with such a good system, it was deliberate and by design that they created it.


sure they didnt know about dna or mitochondria or relativity, but then again, im sure some things we know today are so ignorant that people of the future will laugh at us too... thats just building on previous knowledge.

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Entity

You had me until you typed this part.

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Waves

simple fact. time moves on, knowledge is gained, people become smarter.

the truth is if you were to bust out a time machine and warp a founding father to todays world he would be at a complete loss. their minds would be blown by the mathematics of economics alone. it would take longer than they have to live to actually catch them up on the dynamics of how the world has changed and how it now works.

im not saying we've evolved in 200 years, our brains arent larger or more efficient. but we know more and are capable of much more. the game is more complex, there are more variables to worry about.

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stoneric

The founding fathers, mothers, sisters, brothers, cousins, and red headed step children would be disgusted with what we have become.

FourtySecondRip

regardless of how shell shocked they would be when they got here, by time machine cyrogenics or otherwise. they would be disgusted at the level of control the government has in our everyday lives. the entire point of the constitution is to limit governments authority. checks and balances system was designed to limit the power of any one branch of government. they wanted a concrete system that enforced our rights as individuals and as states not a national power that forced states to comply with its ideas or demands. im sure they would be amazed at alot of random things that have popped up since they died like the internet and televisions in every home or the holocaust. but those would be far from their main concerns. nazis would probably be their go to example of government gone wrong but we have many more rules and regulations imposed by the government today then even the nazis had. the only difference is that we dont execute everyone who disobeys those rules. we only execute people who disobey certain rules.

state government is about as big as it needs to be today. i dont want states secceding from the union or anything like that but honestly how can people believe that washington dc knows what is best for each and every state when the people, geography, and problems are so diverse.

one blanket decision that affects all 50 states is pretty insane in its own right. let alone the thousands of federal laws we have today. most of which are the product of campaign promises by the people who feel obligated to write those laws because it is what got them elected. the supreme court should be the only organization that has the power to make any law affecting all 50 states and even that is a stretch in my mind.

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Lloydy

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John F. Kerry

cool reply 402nd

the thing about the founders is many of them hated one another- jefferson couldnt stand to even look at hamilton or adams... especially in the later years when the federalists kept passing law after law to strengthen the federal govt' .... various antifederalist types have done "ron paul"-esque stuff over the years- dissolving the central bank comes to mind....and then the ensuing chaos convinced most people that strong central institutions are important even if they do cause some brashness and problems with overbearingness-

similar to shays rebellion - most people thought states rights were important , until the states started to pass laws making all debts in their state forgiven- when the small time decisions started to destroy important national interests, the federal gov't and most americans would come down on the side that we need a strong gov't, even if it has the potential for evil, and that we must guard against the strong govts tendancies at every turn....


.... i wonder if now, that we have had 2 quite partisan presidents, obama and bush, and really not much has gotten done by either of them - they each had some good things based on their attitude etc, and they each got lots of people pissed at them for those same attitudes... maybe our generation can now learn viscerally thru experience that disagreement is a part of life and not to be looked at as a negative....


the dems started out this term just like the gop did in 2004- we won, were right, were gonna do what we want. so there.


they found out that doing that would just rile people up, and those people wouldnt come around if they felt they were being fucked over....so now the people who loved obama so much basically are fatigued that they have to keep fighting their fellow citizens and brethren every day in and day out to enforce policies those people dont like.

i wish more people knew that fundamental disagreements about the way forward dont just happen often in american history- they are the definition of american history -


lots of people were against teddy roosevelt starting a coup in panama so he could build the panama canal- today we have a nice waterway that is useful to all.... its good that the canal was built, and also good that people were against our brash militarism that went in and did a coup there....both of those things are good, at the same time, and that is a hard thing to reconcille, but its also what has enabled america to make decisions that are perhaps not perfect in an abstract moral sense, but that have resulted in the continued development and improvement of the world.

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John F. Kerry

omg my 1776th post was making this thread !!!! IRONICCCCCCC!!!!

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farmergiles

Nah they just learn how to operate iphones.

Seriously though, people might tend to have a better education but are they smarter?

Some of the smartest shit I've ever read was written a long time ago..

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Kompressor

^ Philosophically maybe, technologically/economically no.

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