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Old 09-08-2010, 05:51 AM   #61 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by SageTree View Post
I'm to the understanding that this is a Sufi based centre.
And they are pretty much the mystic granola munchers of Islam.
I don't think terrorist organizations would get much out of it.
So they use a sharp blade when they behead infidels?

I put a smiley face after, so that means I was just kidding.

Hey, how are the fires, up your way? We're thinking of heading up to Ainsworth in the next 2-3 weeks.
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Old 09-08-2010, 05:52 AM   #62 (permalink)
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No church, of any stripe, belongs there. It's not a place for religion. I guess I'm at the extreme that there should be nothing there but a nice park, with a nice memorial plaque. But that wouldn't embrace diversity, would it?
LOL It's two blocks from the site...you do know that right? No offense. BTW a park does sound nice at the site. Maybe with a couple of oak trees.
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Old 09-08-2010, 06:29 AM   #63 (permalink)
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this debate is simple...and one obvious since 9/11.

Part of America is too dim to understand that Islam is not the same as fundamental Islam.

Smart America recognizes that terrorists are not representative of the entire religion, just as Fred Phelps is not representative of Christianity.

Dim America treats Islam as an invader. Smart America utilizes critical thinking and nuance to distinguish between the two.

Chaos and irrationality ensues. Dim America gets riled up over anything fed to them by fear mongers. Smart America /facepalms and tries to fight back. this riles up Dim America more...which creates a vicious circle of WTFBBQ...

unfortunately only the smart Americans have to deal with the heartache and disappointment of their fellow countrymen, as dim america just needs to /rage, while smart america has to /think and /mourn.
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Old 09-08-2010, 07:01 AM   #64 (permalink)
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LOL It's two blocks from the site...you do know that right? No offense. BTW a park does sound nice at the site. Maybe with a couple of oak trees.
I do know that. Have all along. It's where they found the landing gear from Atta's plane. LOL. Well, maybe not so LOL. No offense taken.
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Old 09-08-2010, 07:07 AM   #65 (permalink)
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this debate is simple...and one obvious since 9/11.

Part of America is too dim to understand that Islam is not the same as fundamental Islam.

Smart America recognizes that terrorists are not representative of the entire religion, just as Fred Phelps is not representative of Christianity.

Dim America treats Islam as an invader. Smart America utilizes critical thinking and nuance to distinguish between the two.

Chaos and irrationality ensues. Dim America gets riled up over anything fed to them by fear mongers. Smart America /facepalms and tries to fight back. this riles up Dim America more...which creates a vicious circle of WTFBBQ...

unfortunately only the smart Americans have to deal with the heartache and disappointment of their fellow countrymen, as dim america just needs to /rage, while smart america has to /think and /mourn.
What's the debate then? Everyone who agrees with you is smart. Those who don't are stupid.

Wow, I'm so glad I didn't have to deal with heartache and mourning in the days after. I must've had those emotions all mixed up, being a dullard and all. Thank you, oh wise one, for critically thinking all that out for me. Oprah, please.

How are you on these tools down in Florida burning Korans this week? Religious tolerance and all. It's OK. They're just expressing their feelings, aren't they? And all feelings are valid. As long as they agree with you.
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Old 09-08-2010, 08:40 AM   #66 (permalink)
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It's hard to miss the irony of who is shouting for Muslims to control their terrorists.....
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Old 09-08-2010, 11:13 AM   #67 (permalink)
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What's the debate then? Everyone who agrees with you is smart. Those who don't are stupid.

Wow, I'm so glad I didn't have to deal with heartache and mourning in the days after. I must've had those emotions all mixed up, being a dullard and all. Thank you, oh wise one, for critically thinking all that out for me. Oprah, please.

How are you on these tools down in Florida burning Korans this week? Religious tolerance and all. It's OK. They're just expressing their feelings, aren't they? And all feelings are valid. As long as they agree with you.
I disagree completely with those people burning the Korans.

I also completely agree they have a right to do so and would defend their right to do so just as I provide a voice for the people who wish to build a mosque "near" ground zero.

Foot meet mouth, sir.

And I'm going to let slide your unconscious comparison between an act of violence (burning a book holy to people) with an act of peace (building a community center for worship).


It's not about those who disagree with me are dim. I disagree constantly with people on a regular basis...and most of the time they are not "dim."

In America, however, the rabid conservative base who view complex issues in black and white, yes, are dim. they lack (or choose to ignore) the ability to understand complex and nuanced issues such as distinguishing between the actions of the few and the purpose of the many, in favor of blunt and simplistic explainations to support their preconceived (and/or pre-fed) ideas.

therefore, the debate is an irrational one. People who understand the truth (Islam is not synonymous with terrorism) find themselves arguing about reality...while those who remain "dim" either by miseducation or (more damningly...) by choice argue an irrational position...that building a house of worship near ground zero is (insert inflammatory word here).
The debate is no longer about anything debatable. The debate has devolved into one side saying "2 +2 =4" while the other side shouts "2+2 = ORANGE!"

How can one respond to people who refuse to see nuance in issues? It's exceedingly disheartening as our collective American consciousness goes down the path of insanity.

And just for the record: I live in NYC...I was about 1/2 a mile from ground zero when the towers fell...and I lost family friends in the attacks. I mention this only to point out that if I'm able to see past the untruthful assumptions about an entire religion, so can middle america who wrapped themselves in the flag in the name of people like me, only to create the very environment terrorists want: an intolerant and suspicious population in "the land of the free", hopefully inciting a holy war.
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Old 09-08-2010, 12:31 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Steve Chapman: Ground zero mosque: How Republicans protected the Ground zero mosque - chicagotribune.com

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Ten years ago, Republicans in Congress passed a major law to protect the right of Muslims to establish mosques even where such a building might be unwelcome. Yes, they did. They just may not have thought of it quite that way at the time.

The law, called the Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act, was aimed at a common problem often ignored by the courts: local government bodies using zoning authority to prevent religious institutions from moving in or expanding their operations.

It had the support of such groups as the Christian Legal Society and the Family Research Council. Rep. Charles Canady, R-Fla., said it was aimed at "the well-documented and abusive treatment suffered by religious individuals and organizations in the land use context." Sen. Orrin Hatch, R- Utah, pushed it because, he said, "At the core of religious freedom is the ability for assemblies to gather and worship together."
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Old 09-08-2010, 01:31 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Yes. "Our" hated mongering war mongers. A bunch of unrevved up Saudis were just minding their business one September day and unluckily for them the planes they were flying on crashed into buildings and the ground. For no apparent reason.

We won't know if "our" revved up populace would approve if everyone paying for the "community centre which has a mosque in it" (there, is that better?) is squeaky clean, because the developer isn't squeaky clean. No matter how much you wish he were.

No church, of any stripe, belongs there. It's not a place for religion. I guess I'm at the extreme that there should be nothing there but a nice park, with a nice memorial plaque. But that wouldn't embrace diversity, would it?

Just for fun I tried to look up your Hamas being funded by Israel thing. Are there any unshadowy sources willing to be named, or is this all just Alex Jones- esque numbskullery?
I could give a shit what goes on ground zero or near ground zero. My point was the war mongers, using hate mongering tactics, need an enemy and the Muslims are it.

israel backed hamas as an alternative to the PLO.
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Old 09-08-2010, 01:42 PM   #70 (permalink)
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I do know that. Have all along. It's where they found the landing gear from Atta's plane. LOL. Well, maybe not so LOL. No offense taken.
So what if they found the landing gear from atta's plane, if that is in fact true? Maybe we should consider the whole area the flight path took to be sacred ground. Maybe the whole god damn city should be off limits to anything Islam.

I think you're j-wonder
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Old 09-08-2010, 02:02 PM   #71 (permalink)
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you guys who support the mosque (which actually i dont not support the mosque) but u guys basically are doing just what obama did in his speech today- dont answer the legitimate questions raised by people on one side, but simply attempt to equate them all with the lowest common denominator.... you dont have to answer or adress their concerns, all you have to do is point to one lunatic on the fringe and say "oh there all just racists and middle america wrapped in the flag"... im not middle america wrapped in the flag... i have legitimate concerns, and im not surprised you guys use the same tactic obama does , but at the end of the day it doenst answer peoples concerns or alleviate them in the slightest.... it maybe makes you feel better about yourself and high and mighty about your superiority... (until you lose both houses of congress)
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Old 09-08-2010, 02:55 PM   #72 (permalink)
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I haven't read this entire thread but will add this in case it has not already been mentioned.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MK Ultra
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Originally Posted by user
A few months ago FOX was SUPPORTING the idea of the center being built there. They had the Iman on air to talk about it and called it a positive step.

So what happened? Alwaleed shoot Bobby's dog?
It's an election year and the GOP needs a divisive issue.

"My democrat opponent wants a mosque at ground zero! He's a commie, who hates children and Jesus!'
Which is typical Republican bull-shit hyperbole.
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Rauf described the center to be built two blocks from the former site of the World Trade Center towers -- destroyed by terrorist-hijacked commercial jets on September 11, 2001 -- as a "shared space for community activities, like a swimming pool, classrooms and a play space for children."
"There will be separate prayer spaces for Muslims, Christians, Jews and men and women of other faiths," he wrote. "The center will also include a multifaith memorial dedicated to victims of the Sept. 11 attacks."
"I am very sensitive to the feelings of the families of victims of 9/11, as are my fellow leaders of many faiths. We will accordingly seek the support of those families, and the support of our vibrant neighborhood, as we consider the ultimate plans for the community center. Our objective has always been to make this a center for unification and healing."
Link

Does it get more inclusionary than this? Have Catholics or any other mainstream religion ever had multiple centers for different religions? Not that I am aware of here in America, land of the free.(?) Also, it's two blocks away!

People are quickly forgetting our history. Some in Texas are smiling. Anyone with a brain is concerned. Also, it was ruled by the lower courts that PD's can track your whereabouts w/out a warrant. Obama doesn't even see anything wrong with this. What the fuck is happening to our country?
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Old 09-08-2010, 03:03 PM   #73 (permalink)
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you guys who support the mosque (which actually i dont not support the mosque) but u guys basically are doing just what obama did in his speech today- dont answer the legitimate questions raised by people on one side, but simply attempt to equate them all with the lowest common denominator.... you dont have to answer or adress their concerns, all you have to do is point to one lunatic on the fringe and say "oh there all just racists and middle america wrapped in the flag"... im not middle america wrapped in the flag... i have legitimate concerns, and im not surprised you guys use the same tactic obama does , but at the end of the day it doenst answer peoples concerns or alleviate them in the slightest.... it maybe makes you feel better about yourself and high and mighty about your superiority... (until you lose both houses of congress)
as much as you'd love to believe otherwise, the worldis not made up of Democrats and Republicans(that distiction belongs to the United States Government and thier private affiliates (primarily public employee unions )
and those whose main source of income is through the Pentagon + other defense and intelligence` appropriations
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Old 09-08-2010, 03:49 PM   #74 (permalink)
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you guys who support the mosque (which actually i dont not support the mosque) but u guys basically are doing just what obama did in his speech today- dont answer the legitimate questions raised by people on one side, but simply attempt to equate them all with the lowest common denominator.... you dont have to answer or adress their concerns, all you have to do is point to one lunatic on the fringe and say "oh there all just racists and middle america wrapped in the flag"... im not middle america wrapped in the flag... i have legitimate concerns, and im not surprised you guys use the same tactic obama does , but at the end of the day it doenst answer peoples concerns or alleviate them in the slightest.... it maybe makes you feel better about yourself and high and mighty about your superiority... (until you lose both houses of congress)
Isn't using the lowest common denominator how you've formed your opinion about Muslims?
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Old 09-08-2010, 05:20 PM   #75 (permalink)
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Up with hopes down with dopes!!!!!

to twist a movie quote!

Terry, your reply really gives me hope. Seriously.
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Old 09-08-2010, 07:30 PM   #76 (permalink)
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This is the part that gets me!

"The White House had officially avoided comment for quite some time, and a number of Republican figures condemned Obama in the wake of his comment, declaring that his vague, qualified support for the legal notion of Freedom of Religion runs afoul of the general sentiment of the American people."

The White House officially avoided comment, AND a number of Repubs condemned him for running afoul of the general sentiment of the American people.... They won't state what they REALLY mean or think... which is what we want to know!! Because they are afraid the people will vote them out for what they think! They won't give their true opinion, they choose to go with the flow, just to stay in office! I want to know! What do YOU think? and if it is against what I think, that's one strike against you.....if it's in line of what I think, that's in your favor....that's the way representation was supposed to be How can you judge a member of Congress, on their morals, and ethics, when they change with what's popular?
So I guess if 80% of Americans thought smoke should be legal, they would agree, but if 80% were against it, they would agree with that too!!
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Old 09-08-2010, 09:23 PM   #77 (permalink)
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not that Bloomburg ain't drinking his own brand of kool-aid.. at least it's ain't hate flavored
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Old 09-09-2010, 08:55 AM   #78 (permalink)
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this debate is simple...and one obvious since 9/11.

Part of America is too dim to understand that Islam is not the same as fundamental Islam.

Smart America recognizes that terrorists are not representative of the entire religion, just as Fred Phelps is not representative of Christianity.

Dim America treats Islam as an invader. Smart America utilizes critical thinking and nuance to distinguish between the two.

Chaos and irrationality ensues. Dim America gets riled up over anything fed to them by fear mongers. Smart America /facepalms and tries to fight back. this riles up Dim America more...which creates a vicious circle of WTFBBQ...

unfortunately only the smart Americans have to deal with the heartache and disappointment of their fellow countrymen, as dim america just needs to /rage, while smart america has to /think and /mourn.
"Those who understand history are condemned to watch idiots repeat its errors"
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Old 09-09-2010, 10:55 PM   #79 (permalink)
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My very simplified take:

Stopping this mosque from being built would set a very dangerous precedent. Anyone who knows me from my politics knows my thoughts on radical Islam but I know enough to realize that punishing the whole for the acts of the few will only serve to frustrate and radicalize those who would normally be moderate.

I don't care what you say, this is America goddammit and even if I don't believe or even necessarily agree with Islam I will stand up against intolerance and the loss of freedom. I think it's rather un-American to tell others they can't be free to worship or build a church.
Big time thumbs up.
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Old 09-10-2010, 04:54 PM   #80 (permalink)
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Yeah, Timothy McVeigh mentions the Federal Government as well as protecting Christians for his actions. Don't forget all those abortion clinic bombings in the name of "God". Need I say more.

Organized religion is as stupid as believing in Santa Clause as an adult (might as well). The bottom line is there are good people and bad people. If you need religion to make you feel like a good person when in reality you are an ass-hole, well, you will be an ass-hole Christian. Same with any religion. Some people also grasp onto religion in order to belong to a group that makes them feel superior to other groups - the biggest problem really.
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