Grieves

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John F. Kerry

its called a moral dillema and i continuously in this thread said things like "we dont know for sure" and "it worries me too" and "i see how people can be against it" etc etc...

my first post was critical of bush for not discussing this in the way that someone who seemd to be really weighing the different choices carefully would and for not seeming to see how his words "damn right" would be construed by many as to imply he didnt have the gut wretching and extremely difficult time that i thought he had and that i would have if faced with these decisions myself.

im not just being an ass to say to some of the people here (not u terry) that if u go back and read my posts from the last 2 pages there are a bunch of important questions as to whether or not what we did to ksm was torture, and whether or not we should allow actions that , while not anywhere in the same stratosphere as stoning, electrocution, and other things others do, still seem pretty harsh in the modern day and age, but the need for information remains. if u know , like 99.9% know , that u have someone who knows where a nuke thats primed to go off and kill 4 million , or 20 million people is, all im saying and all i have said is its a tough call as to what to do.

lets say u had 300 million lives at stake, and some rogue guy in custody who u knew had the code to deactivate the weapon that would start nuclear armaggedon... no amount of "you should be ashamed"s would change for me the very obvious conclusion that u should do almost anything you can to this guy to get the info from him....if there was some way by killing him to get the information from him, i would say kill him... i mean jesus its one person, or 300 million.... the people who say i should be ashamed are saying the one guys life is more important than the 300 million people's lives.

the geneva convention is about soldiers on the battlefield.... an ordinary soldier is not gonna have some secret information that concerns millions of even tens of thousands of lives.... u wouldnt have to do this kind of calculus with a regular solider, or even a general...
the only people who would have a secret code or location to a nuke or other wmd would be a terrorist or an anarchist or someone who wanted to kill without any objective in mind (territorial, etc) other than to kill as many as possible.... that person, in my opinion, has given up his right to be treated with the same moral considerations that we give others... because if not, whats the alternative.... let him get away with his plot because we cant bring ourselves to violate our own ethics for the survival of mankind....

i just dont think the people who are disagreeing with me see what im saying... im not saying its good, or right.... but in some very limited circumstances its probably necessary.... unless u have another way to get the info from him.

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Nasa under Obama

stoneric

Stop watching "24".

farmergiles

Torture is a bad way to obtain information- under duress people will say anything.

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Cultivate a stoic calmness

stoneric

I missed this, almost. In what fairy fucking tale scenario can even YOU imagine that there could ever be that kind of possible catastrophy? Be realistic if you want to condone barbarism.

farmergiles

Best way to obtain info- sympathisers .

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Cultivate a stoic calmness

SageTree

Seriously though..... put someone in prison as a suspected terrorist and treat them with respect and dignity that is due to a living being and I bet whoever you send in to converse with this person as a spy of sorts will come back with some very clear and precise data.

I'm willing to bet more terrorists plots, no matter the size, have been shut down or investigated to the level or seriousness because of chat rooms.


The talk here has been frustrating for most I'm sure, and I'm glad all are still visiting this topic which I feel could be more and more valid to the general Joe/sette Shmo taken into any custody of any kind, we are all Joe/sette.

I do find the Bush comments angering, the issue to me over all is torture period, all over the world but more to the point that the US gov't condoned it, while damning other countries treatment of prisoners and people at the same time and still are... .

I think it ALL SUCKS, no matter what kind or who is doing it.....

If I had to choose one form of torture, I'd hope they would try to feed me so much ice cream that my belly ached so bad I'd tell them what ever I wanted.......

get my drift.....?

To me it's not really even an issue to talk about, right or wrong, it's so idiotically simple of a choice in my book.

*Raise your hand if you ever want your captures, police etc.... to think that torturing your is a good idea.

When it becomes okay on some level, it becomes a risk at all levels of detention in my speculation.

This is some kindergarten shit right here..... We all know this story.....

We are the world, why can't it happen to 'us'?

Citing other countries for what they do to their people and prisoners sort of misses the mark on torture as an act, for me..... While it'd be great if China or whoever wouldn't torture that'd be great, I won't deny that.

But keeping this on topic and to the second point of the US.

I have to say, I feel, there is some truth in the cliche that what the US does shapes the world... by natural means, in policy and culture...., in reaction to... or by force....

I think this is a true statement. And I hate to be an extreme viewist about 'The US will be Germany all over again' which seems to be a Neo-McCarthy-esq good time lately in the news.

But seriously.... when the 'greatest country on earth' makes torture seem okay... frankly that scares the shit out of me.... or any gov't that influences this type of treatment does too...

In the end the Countries the US is able to compare itself to in this sphere are the exact same countries that The US Gov't is fighting or would likely wage war on if They could get away with it.

If the US wants to be a world leader, this is a great place to rush out in front.

In kind
SageTree

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