John F. Kerry

the country and the world are in a depression now right?

ok well, lets look at history, what got us out of the last depression and spured job growth and consumption for 60 years afterwards...

answer: ww2.


....now keep in mind, this is about realism, so im not going to waste space arguing the morality side, suffice to say most of you have heard me opine about how war is a last resort, etc many times so thats not what im here to do in this thread.


In ww2 we fought countries that were "evil".... or at least as close to evil as you could get- no one would argue that taliban afghanistan or saddams iraq were on par with hitlers germany or the pearl harbor bombin' japs (ok maybe the japs, but not hitler)...

So now that the world is all united , and now that we've been giving Iran years and years to change their ways.... and also, now that its 2 years after the moussavi green revolution was stomped out by the boots of the khomeni regime.... and also now that ahmadinejad declares the nuclear issue "no longer up for discussion"....

well, id say iran is about as close to as evil as hitlers germany is it is possible to get without setting up concentration camps. (which they dont need to do because one nuke bomb could kill more people than aushwitz did).

Im not gona be as simple as saying YEA LETS GO TO WAR.... but just look at all those things i just said, and put them all together, and i just have one thing to say to Mr . Obama - I have a way to end the recession.


nothing clarifies things for the good people in the world ( the persian PEOPLE included) like a righteous fight against evil.

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farmergiles

They haven't invaded anywhere though.

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John F. Kerry

im not disputing that

also - does anybody doubt that the palestinian israeli issue could be solved if not for iran funding and arming hamas hezbollah and syria?


... tell the other muslims and arabs, "we'll end the khomeni regime and free the people of ancient persia if you support us, and then we'll force the jews and palestinians to make peace and agree to a 2 state solution."

now thats realpolitik

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zerodown

You're not disputing anything, you are taking an invalid argument(ww2 saved us from the depression), then you validated the argument by demonizing Iran through the simple step of comparing it to Hitler, and then you dare propose it as the solution(ww3) to the current crisis, because evil must be stopped.

Also, this is what I call a contradiction:

"so im not going to waste space arguing the morality side"

but then,

"In ww2 we fought countries that were "evil""

"or at least as close to evil as you could get- no one would argue that taliban afghanistan or saddams iraq were on par with hitlers germany or the pearl harbor bombin' japs"

"id say iran is about as close to as evil as hitlers germany is it is possible to get without setting up concentration camps."

LOGIC-not_found

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We have to learn to unlearn
Its not contradiction, its amendment
Not everything we see is reality
Not everything we hear is the truth
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"La locura se lleva en la cabeza y las drogas en los bolsillos"
~Roberto Iniesta

Entity

This just HAS to be a farce...right?

This thread being just for the humor factor alone?
Have you looked to see what the REAL (since we're supposed to be being REAL in here) case is against Iran?

It has nothing to do with ANYTHING except the might Iran has...in oil...in deals with China and Russia..and most importantly what it COULD do to the world economy should it decide to dump oil on the markets/trade in Euros instead of green backs the way it has threatened in the past.

India and Pakistan are two of the most fucktarded countries in that region, are constantly fighting with one another and HAVE NUKES.
Israel...HAS NUKES (and incidentally is committing GENOCIDE against the Palestinians) and these all seem hunky dory...

but..OMFG if Iran gets nukes...

then they'd....what? Stand a chance against Israel?
They've saber rattled ..a LOT...but...who have they attacked?

And the biggest farce of this whole thing?
The United States leading the way telling other countries who can and can't be trusted with nukes......and WE are the only effing country to have MELTED PEOPLE with them.

Hypocrisy anyone?

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stoneric

Iran spends 9 billion a year on their defense. The u.s. spends 80 billion a year on their intelligence agencies. Iran has no nukes. israel has hundreds, the u.s. has thousands. Iran hasn't attacked another country in over 200 years. israel and the u.s. have a hard time going 200 days without bombing the shit out of someone. I won't even bring up the absurdity of comparing the taliban to Japan.

Anybody with a brain.

I almost wet myself laughing so hard on this pearl.

SmokeaJoint

Oy, can't wait to see your reply J. Lemme find popcorn real quick...

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Kompressor

Lest we forget our current recession is partly caused by being in two wars already.

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zerodown

Lets find a solution according to J's math:

problem:
two wars = current crisis

solution
two wars + two wars = no crisis

__________________
"I've seen people so poor all they got is money."

We have to learn to unlearn
Its not contradiction, its amendment
Not everything we see is reality
Not everything we hear is the truth
Not everything we're taught helps us grow
~Cultura Profetica

"La locura se lleva en la cabeza y las drogas en los bolsillos"
~Roberto Iniesta

Captain Cannabis

why is iran evil for wanting nuclear weapons? if iran had nuclear weapons and you didn't, surely you would be trying as hard as you can to build one. would that make you evil?

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stoneric

Funny thing about Moussavi, he didn't want to give up Iran's right to enrich uranium either. And imagine the reaction of our "allies", saudi arabia, egypt or jordan to any demonstrations such as those that took place in iran. Don't pretend this about people.

Galt

American hegemony, the modern day iteration of the Monroe Doctrine and Manifest Destiny. Western Imperialism is alive and well and living in the military industrial complex that owns what's left of America's economy. As long as there are "national interests" (re: natural resources that our corporations want on the cheap, ...or for free better yet), the West will continue to muck about in sovereign nations to get what they want. The cost in lives is of no concern since their kids won't be getting killed or maimed and they sure as shit won't be visiting themselves. That's what we have young folks and poor people for. Just call it "bringing democracy to a down trodden people" and it'll fly once you turn it over to the propaganda machine that is our media. Let's have a look at America's history of "bringing democracy" to people:

American Hegemony - A Timeline

As for the how and why of the Middle East being fucked up, well that we can thank the Progressive Western powers at the close of WWI for. Wilson, Webb and their ilk emptied Germany and carved up her colonies as well as eliminated them as a trade competitor. They also kick started their New World Order with bullshit like the League of Nations and the redrawing of borders all over the world. Let's make a country here, and hey I want that one over there. One problem was that they cut Italy and Japan out of the divvying up of the Ottoman and German Empires and that really pissed them off, as we found out two decades later.

We, the West, fucked the Arabs good in return for their helping to distract the Turks after Churchill's fuck up at Gallipoli. Then once the English started yankin' oil out of Iran and started up B.P.'s grandfather, we all decided that it would be better if we just picked rulers for the poor stupid people of the region. The game was, get the fuck out of our way and let us take all of your oil or else. If you help us fuck your own people we'll let you live and won't assassinate you. Hell we'll give you some of the best that the Western Military Industrial Complex has to offer so you can keep the little fuckers in line. Just don't fuck with OUR oil. Yeah, that's been workin' out real good for us hasn't it?

The New World Order / Fabian Socialist / Progressive fucknuts that gave us the IRS and the Federal Reserve back in 1913 are still fuckin' us today. They're just convinced that they know better and we're just too fuckin' stupid to understand...so they'll just have to run shit into the ground for us while they're helping us to understand how much better off we'll all be...eventually. They don't call it Gradualism for nuthin'.

Watch Fiat Empire for Free Online

Here's one for ya. Just in case you think that we actually control anything at all. Take a look at how the puppet masters that keep creating boogiemen, killing our currencies, and maiming our youth while they thin the herd of less desirable third worlders really function. Why is genocide and slavery in Africa O.K. but we need to free the ugly bitches of the Middle East from the terror of the berka? Why is it that we support over 700 military installations in foreign sovereign countries all over the world (and that's just the U.S.)? Why is it that our Federal Reserve, and by extension the World Bank, are so good at destroying currencies (look at what they did to Jamaica and what they've done to us)?



The average idiot in the States actually thinks that the Fed is owned by them. Nope, sorry. We have given control of our currency, and therefor our country, to a banking cartel that lends us our own money and charges us interest for doing so. Wanna have some spare coin for eliminating our national debt and providing social welfare programs that actually get funded and paid for? Here's an idea...get the fuck out of all of the countries where we have no fucking right or business being. Shut down the Fed and tell them to take all of the IOU's that we've been signing to them, and shove them up their ass. What are they gonna do repossess the White House. Fuck 'em they can have it. Who gives a shit if they go belly up? They're not holdin' my money. Dump their worthless scrip and go back to Lincoln's Greenbacks. We have a Treasury and a mint, we can print our own fucking money, and we won't be needin' any more being added to the circulation for decades to come thanks to them.



As for real true crazy fucked up evil in the world today, to hell with Iran and every body else over there. If anybody in Middle East fucks up we have our politically incorrect proxy arms customer over there that'll kick their ass before they can can say Allah ach...BOOM! Why the fuck do you think we keep the Israeli's and the House of horrors in Arabia so well stocked? Us sendin' our kids over there to kill and maim and get killed and maimed is just a side show to keep the dumb fucks back home distracted. Its like a bad magic act at a little kids birthday party.

You want a real crazy fuck to worry about, other than the assholes running the country, take a look at North Fuck-it I'll bomb America tomorrow, Crazy Fuck Korea.

N Korea Military Tactics In A War With US

Now there's a shit hole worth more than a few megatons. Besides we need a good cleaning out of that part of the arsenal so we can all get back to work makin' new shit to kill little brown and black and yellow people with. God Bless America...and the freedom of democracy that we shall bring to every dark corner of the world.
Sounds pretty fuckin' scary to me...how do ya think the Iranians, and the Iraqi's, and the whole rest of the world feels? Gee, I wonder why they feel like crashin' airplanes into our skyscrapers? Duh!!!

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John F. Kerry

uhm because they say they want to wipe other nations off the map.

i would think its pretty obvious... there are plenty of countries that dont have them and arent "trying as hard as they can to build them". i think that argument is absolutely absurd, should every tin pot dictator have the ability to destroy the world?

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Captain Cannabis

why should americas tin pot dictator have this ability any more than someone else?

money? racial/moral superiority?

your ethnocentric views are hateful and your arguments are insane. you completely ignore any historical precedent to (poorly) argue a flawed idea. what you think is pretty obvious is pretty obviously the smallminded views of a bigot who is either too immature to consider that there are more than one story to every issue, or simply trolling a forum of predictably liberal stoners for laughs by being as inflammatory and stupid as possible. personally i can't decide which outcome paints you as a more pathetic individual.

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stoneric

Bringing out the old bullshit again. You know ahmadenejad was talking about the isaeli regime, just like our politicians talking about regime change in Iran. Only our politicians do indeed want to wipe Iran off the map. Just ask hillary or mccorpse or graham or.....

John F. Kerry

you can call it ethnocentric if you want dude, i call it right based on evidence.
if you dont defend whats right , and u just say like some hippie whoa man who can say anyone has a right to do anything to anyone else were all one being,, blah blah blah... well all i can say is what i think from my perspective, and thats that with great power comes great responsibility... the world was eternally fortunate that the US and the USSR understood that, and didnt cause the end of humanity and the destruction of earth at the dawn of the atomic age...

i guess you seem to think that that same farsightedness and willingness to doubt infallibility, and not go down the path to nuclear destruction is innate in all humans, even those who are literally waiting for the revealing of the hidden imam to bring about the final apocalypse.... but imagine that the burden for it was on your shoulders.... i guess you just cant imagine that.... thats fine, i clearly understand that its not ethnocentrism but a desire to have the world keep getting better as it has been and not go backwards in a blaze of darkness.... you cant talk me out of wanting to err on the side of caution when the other option is the end of human kind.

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John F. Kerry

and not only that, but we are a democracy. we have made mistakes, and most americans themselves admit and regret those mistakes. even robert mcnamera in his documentary talked about how he was probably "Acting as a war criminal" during ww2. our democracy isnt perfect, but its free. our leaders do what they think is best for the broad masses of people , not for some few , or a religion, or whatever...they do what they think is best for 300 million of us that elect them.... and whats best for us is not getting into a nuclear conflict with anyone , ever.

iran isnt free. the iranian people dont have any say in whether a nuke would be built, or used.... it would be up to a handful of people, who are beyond reproach, and cant even be taken out by a massive widespread popular uprising like happened for moussavi.

thats the country that if we dont let them have nuclear weapons we are being ethnocentric against?

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John F. Kerry

first of all, china didnt invade iraq, we did, and the iraqis today are taking over and starting a (halting) government, they understood, at long last, that we didnt want to colonize them or do anything other than help them like ameicans do (including the indescriminate slaughter, ignorance of local issues and other regretable but in some senses unavoidable to at least some degree aspects of it ) i know, its not the best thing in the world, but its not the same as if china would do it, because we're america. i dont only believe in american exceptionalism, i believe that most people in the world believe in american exceptionalism...

if we liberated iran, many iranians have family or relatives living in america already... they vote, hold jobs , have prestige, etc.... it would be some iranians living in america and the rest of the americans liberating them... not some horde of homogenous people that dont vote for their leaders and a 10 million man army doing it... so while it wouldnt be cut and dry, and wouldnt go smoothly per se, i still believe it would quite likely end up for the best in the end.

now im making these observations with a grain of salt because everyone knows how shitty things looked in iraq for a while, and still do to some extent.... and how many american and iraqi lives it cost.... but after that qualifier... they probably will be and most of them probably think they will be much better off when they see what lies in front of them after the khomeni regime is removed.


with the internet and global communication and obama as president i dont think it has to be seen as "another attempt to deprive iran of its sovereignty" firstly because in fact thats not what it is, so basically your saying what khomeni would say to rally his people against the west, but maybe just maybe instead of looking down on the iranians im actually giving them credit and thinking if we did it right (after waiting years and trying to get more and more international support, and having barack hussein obama be the one to do it, and all the rest) maybe they will actually see what we really are doing and accept it as that.... certainly we would "win" and certainly we could take the revolutionary guard out of power ... and these are things we COULDNT DO if they had nukes.... so really its almost a moral thing to do to do it now. because the iranian people dont want iron fisted dictatorship anymore, they were out in the streets to fight against it.... they dont hope that khomeni will change his ways.... they see the stubborness of ahmadinejad and they see people like neda bleeding skull broken in the streets.... america and likeminded countries could free them from that.... and i guess i just have faith in them that they would after a while see that we're not monopolizing their oil or taking their sovereignty, just like we didnt in iraq.... the american people want to free the iranian people and to do so before nukes make that impossible, and to further the idea that democracys and free open societies dont go to war with one another....

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farmergiles

No- that's exactly what everyone else in the world is not giving credulity to.

In Iran, for example, everyone remembers the US in the seventies for propping up the Shah's oppressive regime.
Then later in the eighties for propping up Sadaam's oppressive regime in Iraq which at the time was menacing Iran with war.

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John F. Kerry

i get where ur comming from giles, but i dont mean they have to believe in it the same way i do.

iraqis accepted ultimately that we wanted them to decide for themselves... they may have been pissed about how brash we were about how stupidly we did certain things, but in the end they realized that we werent taking their oil and using it for ourselves and shit.... and they now are learning slowly how to be a democracy... i guess time will tell if it works, but if it does, then time will show that we liberated them , not conquered them or extended our sphere of influence to them or anything.

its the same with the israel palestinian problem,. both sides bitch about how we are biased, the arabs always say america supports the zionist entity and such... but then both sides also consider us and want us to be the middle man and the honest broker between them because they both know that were the best option to play that role that they have in the world.

thats what i mean by exceptionalism, we are considered as honest a broker as all sides can get pretty much in any situation...

do u think the palestinians would want china to be the broker between them and the jews?

do u think each side would consider saudi arabia or russia to be as neutral towards both sides interests as they consider the us to be?

its not because were magical ,. its because were the strongest country thats also a democracy (and by america i pretty much mean america, nato and australia and the rest of the free world, its not just tooting my own horn).

thats why we manage to keep winning even when we lose, because we are able to admit mistakes, recongize problems , and change course without losing face, or at least without losing the narrative.

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