DdC

“We need to do a little soul searching”

Was the shooting in Arizona the work of a right-wing crazy? Or just a plain old crazy? Or someone whose craziness was channeled and directed by the hate speech that permeates what passes for public discourse today?

Sarah Palin listed Gifford on her "targets" list during the 2010 campaign.We are told that had nothing to do with today's shooting, because violent speech has nothing to do with violent actions. That's the right-wing mantra today, and that was the right-wing mantra last year, when Gifford's office was attacked.

After she voted for health care reform last year, Gifford received death threats and her office windows were broken. The Washington Post reported in March on a right-wing former militia member's call to break windows of health care reform supporters:

"So, if you wish to send a message that Pelosi and her party [that they] cannot fail to hear, break their windows," Vanderboegh wrote on the blog, Sipsey Street Irregulars. "Break them NOW. Break them and run to break again. Break them under cover of night. Break them in broad daylight. Break them and await arrest in willful, principled civil disobedience. Break them with rocks. Break them with slingshots. Break them with baseball bats. But BREAK THEM."

The Victims in Saturday's Shooting Rampage
CBS) The Arizona Republic has published a partial list of the 6 people killed in Saturday's rampage

U.S. District Judge John McCarthy Roll, who was appointed by President George H.W. Bush in 1991.

A 9-year-old girl, Christina Taylor Green. According to the Republic, a neighbor invited Christina to attend the Giffords event, since she had just been elected to the student council at her school.

Gabe Zimmerman, an aide to Rep. Giffords, was also killed. Zimmerman, 30, was engaged to be married, the Republic reports.

Along with Rep. Giffords, who is in critical condition from a bullet that passed through her brain, others of the 13 wounded included:

Gifford's deputy director Ron Barber.

Another staffer, Pam Simon, was also hit.

At Least 6 Dead in Rep. Giffords Shooting

Rep. Giffords Critical After "Devastating Wound"
But Hospital Officials Remain Cautiously Optimistic Congresswoman Will Survive Gunshot Wound to the Head; 6 Dead in Rampage

When the GOP lies and promotes wars and violence and disregards the citizens needs, this is what happens. Americans lives have no meaning for these Neocons.

2nd patient dies from AZ governor Jan Brewer's Death Panels.
A second person denied transplant coverage by Arizona under a state budget cut has died, with this death "most likely" resulting from the coverage reduction, a hospital spokeswoman said Wednesday. Democrats and other critics have slammed Republican Gov. Jan Brewer and the Republican-led Legislature for the transplant coverage reduction, and incoming Senate Minority Leader David Schapira called on them to restore the approximately $1.4 million of funding. "Failure to restore this funding is a death sentence for people who have committed no crimes," he said.

John F. Kerry

im surprised you dont already have a bunch of fake magazine covers to that effect.



....remember when the census worker in kentucky was hung from a tree with fed carved into him and all of you said the same thing....


and do u remember when it came out that he faked it and did it himself....


heres a good pic for you

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Nasa under Obama

DdC

Victims of Teabog Rhetoric? is in the form of a question goperman. The patient victims of Jan Brewer are dead. Regardless of this shooting, Palin and the GOPerverts are guilty of sponsoring terrorism. Murdering thugs ain't nothin new. Rhetoric has lynched thousands before and no one is disputing that it will again. Except those protecting the killers. For greed. Period. That is what you value American lives as to how much you can profit on their misery.

John F. Kerry

im not in the mood to sit here and argue with you , but every weather underground member, black panther, anarchist, v for vendetta watcher, etc etc... im sure they all agree that those damn teabaggers are the only violent people out there...

ill bet those guys screaming "off with their heads" when they attacked the british royals cars , they were british teabags right?

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Nasa under Obama

DdC

“The media's the most powerful entity on earth. They have the power to make the innocent guilty and to make the guilty innocent, and that's power. Because they control the minds of the masses.”
~ El-Hajj Malik El-Shabazz

No dumbass, teabog ditzo's follow the murderers. Those attacking the crown were oppressed students. Thats your problem sucking up to Becky. He protests the victims of oppression, for the moneysluts. That isn't new either. Or even that hard when you control most of the media and your followers believe literacy is a Russian plot. Teabags knowingly or not spew violence against workers, teachers, nurses and the poor all while saying nothing about the trillions to wall street, iraq and the drug war. Simpletons ain't new either. Hark is that the call of a yellow bellied oligarchist? Pitifools. The Dick Armey works for the Insurance and Banksters and have the Money to do it. Grass roots haven't the funds or the corporate connections. Oligarchy generally means the rule of the few, and those few are generally the people who are richer and more powerful than the others. You would have been protesting for the release of Benedict Arnold.

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country... Corporations have bee enthroned, an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money-power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until the wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed."
-- Abraham Lincoln, November 12, 1864

OldMan&TheWeed

My first thought when I heard about the shootings was that it was done by some mentally disturbed loner. Sadly, we’ve had a few of these on Yahooka. A few years ago a disturbed man posted on Yahooka some nonsensical rant shortly before murdering his mother.

Later, when the shooter was identified as Jared Loughner and described by a former classmate as a “pot-smoking loner” who was "obviously very disturbed" and that he "disrupted class frequently with nonsensical outbursts," I thought, “shit, it’s John F. Kerry.” I checked, and when I saw that he had last posted AFTER the congresswoman was shot, I was truly relieved.

Did the Tea Party’s rhetoric have anything to do with this? At first, I thought so. Now I’m not so sure. After reading Loughner’s incoherent ravings (which make Kerry read like Keats), that his favorite books included Mein Kampf and the Communist Manifesto (which ideologically cancel each other out), I’m convinced that he’s just another in a long line of attention seeking fucked in the head social misfits looking for fame. Loughner is very reminiscent of Mark David Chapman or a David Hinckley. From what I’ve read so far he fits the pattern White, twenties, withdrawn loner with an overbearing mother and a dominating father, who internalize a lot, plotting in secret.

Palin’s gun-themed rhetoric is inappropriate, and may be loosely linked to Jared Loughner’s actions, but I don’t think it caused them.

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Nintey-three percent of what I say is brilliant, factual information and seven percent is complete bullshit. Have fun deciding which is which.

Geeno

I agree, while she ought not to be bringing violent metaphors into the political arena "dont retreat, reload", the guy was crazy and reportedly a registered democrat anyways. For gods sake, he still used myspace.

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OldMan&TheWeed

Blaming Palin for Jared Loughner’s shooting of a congresswoman and all those other innocent people is like blaming Jodie Foster for John Hinckley’s assassination attempt of Ronald Reagan.

While Palin is in no way intellectually qualified to hold office ANY public office, and her screw-ball gun-themed rhetoric is out of place in American politics, Jared Loughner shot Representative Giffords because he's fucked in the head.

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Nintey-three percent of what I say is brilliant, factual information and seven percent is complete bullshit. Have fun deciding which is which.

stoneric

"a pot smoking loner". No way the teabaggers are getting the blame.

Geeno

Twitter / Michael Moore: If a Detroit Muslim put a ...


Im not a fan of moore but he asks a good question. "if a detroit muslim had placed crosshairs on a map..."

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Ego Tripping

Well, if anything, I hope this sends a clearer message to the elected officials (and non-elected like Palin) that there are some real people out there hearing their words...and some real crazy ass people ready to take them at face-value.

While you can't blame Palin for this guys' actions, I do not find it much coincidence that her putting crosshairs on a district and someone actually getting shot in that district occurred. Doubtful it would happen, but Giffords or her family could possibly file a law-suit against Palin due to her words and graphics she put out there.

The Tea Party only begins to get blame because the Tea Party is a 'catch-all' of political dissent right now. It has no clear message, it has no clear leader, it doesn't even know what side of the aisle it comes from. In the past, it's clearly had people that demonstrated and advocated for violence (that is, a call for armed revolution) against the government and more directly, congressmen. So, its no wonder that group was the first to be looked at.

Anyway, If any good does come out of this, it will hopefully be that of a more toned-down and pragmatic approach to debate, and less stoking of an already huge fire within American politics. As Obama has said in the past, to 'disagree without being disagreeable.'

We shall see.

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Purd Hupley

The fact is this guy left a trail all over the net that he was a whackjob, plain and simple. One of the prices we pay for having a free society is that we can't screen every loon out of the population. In a perfect world, we could've seen this guy coming. But it's not a perfect world.

One of the prices payed for being in the public eye is that you're going to attract the attention of nutjobs. I worked for a while as an overnight DJ for a country radio staion in a really small market. I had 2 stalkers and got several death threats. So I can't imagine being known on a national level. Does that make it OK? Of course not. But the truth is that there are marginalized folks out there. We can't identify them all.

I worked for a food bank for a couple of years and got talked into giving a client a ride to his "motel". From the moment we got in the van he starts ranting, literally ranting, about the Masons, the currency, the one world government...all that shit. I had enough interest in conspiracy theories that I could placate him for a bit by doing more than grinning and nodding. Scariest half hour of my life.

If you're needing to call this guy a Tea Partier, right winger, a Palinist, or whatever to further your own political agenda, you have little if any true faith in your beliefs. This guy wasn't motivated by those you disagree with politically. His motivations were much stronger. They were in his mind, and at the end of the day, he couldn't stand up to them.

Hinkley, Oswald, Walter Beamer, Sarah Moore, Squeaky Fromme, Sirhan. We try so hard as a society to make reason from the acts of people like this. It's hard for us to accept that such small, meaningless people are able to throw such a large monkey wrench into the machine. But history shows us that they do.

John F. Kerry

dude , just dude.

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Nasa under Obama

Ego Tripping

All the more reason that people in the limelight have to be more scrutinizing when choosing how they say what they desire to say...you never know who is listening. Or, perhaps you do, and you cater and pander to those people to further your own agenda...which is what could be said about Palin's graphic/words.

Clearly this man acted on his own volition and motivations...but all the more reason to tone it down some. People are on edge and those that don't have a solid grounding don't need much to send them over the edge. Our great power must come with great responsibility.

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DdC

No sister sarah didn't whisper in the gunuts ear, physically. But Jodie Foster never painted a target with Rayguns picture on it like paleone did with the Congressma'am. Besides John Hinckley was a wealthy family friend of Ford. I accept he was a wingnut used by Bush the elder to keep Ronnie in line. I still can't figure that one out. How Boosh criticized Rayguns and hurled insults like all Boosh campaigns. Told him his trickle down theory was Voodoo economics and then Rayguns kept him as VP the second term. Boosh the elder was CIA since its beginning. Through the sabotage of the Bay of Pigs, the assassination of both Kennedy's, MLK, maybe Lenny Bruce, even Janus, Jimmy and Morrison. While quietly pushing the CSA through Congress lumping in Hemp while the world watched Watergate. Skynerd, John Jr. and Paul Wellstone after getting doused with Colombian roundup. Ok maybe Janus did party too hardy.

Boosh was invested early, if not a founder of Dyncorps. Maybe just conspiracy but he had connections. Same with Mark David Chapman potentially a CIA op, traveling around the world with the WMCA also thought of as a CIA front. But thats meanderings. Just because Rayguns Boosh were about to campaign against Carter and Lennon started recording again and politicizing again, may be just coincidence. Jodie Foster never met Hinkley as far as she knew so I don't see that as a comparison. Lone nuts are always blamed, convenience. I think those living alone and maintaining civility are as or more sane than those going along with wingnut family members rules or dictates from society they totally disagree with. Those living alone in boarded up cabins with guard dogs and automatic weapons spewing hate are dangerous and need confrontation before they act out their roles as some wingnut freedom fighter. Anyone who worships inanimate objects is nuts. Ganja, Crosses or guns are not living entities and deserve no love as one gives a human. They are not gods or magic to give powers you didn't achieve on your own. Guns aren't the problem. The NRA's mandatory minimums are.

I think maybe thats the key, what do they say. Is it hate rhetoric or just a different opinion. Same with Liberals getting paranoid over jury nullification. Just because rednecks used it to nullify lynch mobs verdicts doesn't mean it shouldn't be used to get Ganja growers off. The big huge difference is clear if one takes a second to think about it. KKK lynch mobs have victims. Growers provide a public service. Those who would lump them together are only politicizing like faux news. Same with the rhetoric of paleone. Hate towards some Americans while hippies only criticized certain practices and laws or specific people abusing power or unjust wars killing innocents. Teabog ditzo's protest the American people while worshipping the corporations as gods. Sad they are so weak. I never understood Americans with a Constitution giving them the right to speak out against tyranny, choosing to speak out against those protesting it. Those who try to silence the whistleblowers have something to hide. Same as those who lie about Ganja.

The authoritarian neocons have proven their willingness to lie about Ganja and lie about nukes, fossil fools and war in Iraq. They have an end justifying means philosophy so lies are not even seen as bad things. Sister sarah probably shouldn't be arrested as an assessory, but maybe learn a lesson in addressing the public. Screaming fire in crowded theaters is a punishable offense and basically that is what the teabog movement is about, or has morphed into. That's what happens when 75 years of prohibition dry out your bodies cannabinoid transmitters. Ganja deficiency, causing hardening of the mind. If provoked while being in contact with alcohol and gun powder, could become deadly. Once again a case of red flags not seen or acted upon.

R.I.P. John Lennon

The Authoritarians (HTML version)

(Mandatory Minimum Sentences)

Signs of Sickness and D.E.A.th

Cover-Ups, Prevarications, Subversions & Sabotage

OldMan&TheWeed

Of this we are agreed.


It is my hope that just as the extremist militia movement of the 1990s had its Waco Texas and Timothy McVeigh (which marginalized them and caused them to lose their mainstream following) the shooting of Gabrielle Giffords and killing six innocent people will give normal people pause before signing up with the Tea Party. True violence often begins with violent rhetoric.

It’s interesting how both movements tend to attract the same demographic.

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Nintey-three percent of what I say is brilliant, factual information and seven percent is complete bullshit. Have fun deciding which is which.

Purd Hupley

Rhetoric is nothing more than words. Words aren't, and can not, be violent. Words can paint violent imagery, but that's it. It takes a person's will to commit violence.

I'm not quite sure what "false" violence is or how it differs from "true" violence.

You're seriously hoping that what comes from this is that people stop disagreeing with you politically? I don't really know who you think the Tea Party members/ supporters are. They're not Brownshirts. They're not Nazis, neo or otherwise. They're people who disagree with politically. That's all. And frankly, to label them as anything close to the Militia movement of the 90's is either a lie or intellectually lazy. Or maybe "violent rhetoric", as you seem to define it. I had a firearms dealer's license in the 90's. You know, ad in the paper, running it off my kitchen table, I'll hook you up with hunting stuff for 15% over cost. I got lots of calls from Militia types. They make their "identity" pretty clear pretty fast. Fascinating to talk to. The first thing you learn is that in their world, the System if fucked all beyond repair. Revolution, real live, forcibly taking the System back (and all the unpleasantness that comes with that) revolution. Burn it down, start all over. Closer to the of 60's radicals than Tea Baggers, frankly.

What "mainstream" support did the Militia movent have? In the aftermath of Waco, maybe there was some, but I think that most came from so many kids dying. It certainly wasn't any sympathy toward the Branch Davidians, cuz they were wingnuts. As for Militia movement itself, most people had no idea it even existed until OKC. The closest to "mainstream" support I saw on a fringe group like that was the aftermath of the Randy Weaver thing. And that support has come in the years after, when it came out in court that the FBI had really overstepped their bounds, rules of engagement- wise. I just don't remember the Militia movement in general having mainstream support in the 90's.

The problem, as I see it, is that for all the agreeing this guy is an anomoly, a hiccup in the System, people are still going to use this as a paintbrush to slander their political opponents. This guy wasn't about party politics, or the Tea Party, or moveon.org, or targets on Palin's map, or Olberman/ Beck/ Air America. He was John Hinkley, Lee Oswald...Travis Bickle.

I've been thinking about this since yesterday. Looking at it from an historical perspective. I've gone through Presidential assinations and attempts. Mostly in my head. I haven't sat down and Googled it. Of all that I can bring to mind, I can only think of two that didn't fit the "lone nut" profile. When Truman was president, a group of Puerto Rican independence activists tried to kill him in an organized assault. Fascinating story, which doesn't get brought up often. And the Lincoln assassination. Boothe wasn't a lone nut by any means. And like the Truman attempt, it was definitely politically motivated. My point is that for all the soul searching going on about the tone of debate, I think as a society we have a pretty good record. Yesterday was a really bad no good day. But as a society, we'll get through it. And probably as a stronger one.

OldMan&TheWeed

Rhetoric is nothing more than words as a house is nothing more than a pile of wood and stone.

Rhetoric is the art of using language to communicate effectively and persuasively.

Just as it would take a skilled carpenter to sort through a mountain of mixed building materials in order to assemble a house; so a skilled orator can sort through the thousands of words, and using his oratorical skill, assemble them in a persuasive manner.

If rhetoric cannot cause people to do that which they would never have otherwise done, than the billions of dollars spent on advertising are a wasted.

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Nintey-three percent of what I say is brilliant, factual information and seven percent is complete bullshit. Have fun deciding which is which.

OldMan&TheWeed

Thanks, that one gets me thinking.

What I meant to convey is through the gun imagery and metaphor, Sarah Palin aims to flush out people who (like myself) are normal supporters of the Second Amendment. People like me who go to the range with my kids once in a while to safely shoot our .22 rifle and .45 handgun.

What she gets in the deal are a few people who bring rifles to political rallies (second amendment demonstration), the survivalists, and maybe one or two real crazies. For these one or two people (out of a group in the millions) the gun imagery and metaphor will be taken a secret orders or some bullshit.

As I said before, I accept that Jared Loughner was not influenced by anything more than his own mind. Because of his anti-government beliefs, I don't think he was heeding ANY political message in the media—not even Sarah Palin.

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Nintey-three percent of what I say is brilliant, factual information and seven percent is complete bullshit. Have fun deciding which is which.

Purd Hupley

Good analogy. I lower my sword on that one.

I will disagree that advertising causes people to do what they otherwise wouldn't do. Advertising doesn't cause me to buy denture adhesive. Or a skateboard. Or to walk up to an elected official, look her in the eye, and shoot her in the face. Advertising, like hypnosis, doesn't "cause" you to do anything you're not predisposed to do. This guy was predisposed. Should Catcher have never written because 20 years later a nutjob might snuff John Lennon? Should Jodie Foster have not made movies because Hinkley was going to try to kill Reagan? Well, it might have been better for all if Contact had never been made.

Is it better to silence ideas because of the fear of a random nutjob, or is it better to for ideas to be silenced by government fiat? I think both are pretty bad myself. But I'm guessing it's OK to silence ideas you don't agree with. Or that people think twice before signing on to a group that you disagree with.