Patriot Act Fails in House - Page 2

John F. Kerry · 02-10-2011, 11:31 AM

to answer part of your question sage, the patriot act doesnt have anything to do with airport security .

and as for the roving wiretaps and less stringent warrant requirements. and as to stonerics comment about "oh it doesnt effect you so who cares?". ..

im just trying to do a balancing act. if there were stories in the paper every week about some person who was tracked by the fbi and had a horrible thing happen to them,,, etc etc... it would be one thing.

all i can go by is what i see, and i haven't seen lots and lots of people, or read lots and lots of stories of people who were unfairly targeted by the patriot act. its not just "me", its that i cant even recall a single story from a newspaper where a person was unfairly targeted or had some real bad stuff happen to them because of the provisions of the patriot act.

then, think about another thing, what is privacy today? google has so much info about you that they could basically do anything they wanted to you. they know everything, crazily , amazing amounts of data about you that if you ever saw the "file" google has on you you would probably be shocked that your search querries and online behavior have given them such a complete and total picture of who you are and what you do.

so google has that, and i was just reading an article the other day about the 'death of privacy'.... i think this is happening more because of the tech that we have versus the insidious desire of some evil person to violate your privacy.

the question is basically what is private anymore? and how do we protect what is private when there are internet sites that can steal your personal info and sell it to 10,000 people in china in 2 seconds? like we all know how we want things to be, but in fact, things just cant be that way, because the world is so connected, fast, interlinked, and everything is saved and recorded automatically by computers.

so in that context, what is the patriot act? they will find out much less about the average suspect terrorist then they probably could if they looked at that persons google file...

so yea, i dunno , i agree with u guys but we also need to prevent terrorist attacks and we really havent had another one so what do u want to do? it seems to me if you think of all the potentially privacy violating things that the govt could do to protect us from terrorism, the patriot act is actually pretty small potatoes....they could do far more invasive stuff if they wanted to, but this, which seems relatively benign , has been working pretty well.

so its a tough call. and by no means perfect. if u consider the patriot act as like 20% violation of privacy rights..... and imagine that some rumsfeldian plan could have been 85% violative of privacy rights.... and that a program that was only 5% violative of privacy rights would not be effective.... basically you have to balance the pros and cons.

it seems to me like we acomplish a prety high level of safety for a pretty low level of right infringement.... but thats for each person to decide so its perfectly understandable that some of u would disagree.

~1~ · 02-10-2011, 12:05 PM

Google 'Patriot Act Misuse' and spend some time reading. It can go far beyond just looking into your shit and I'm sure not all of it is bullshit.

stoneric · 02-10-2011, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John F. Kerry

all i can go by is what i see, and i haven't seen lots and lots of people, or read lots and lots of stories of people who were unfairly targeted by the patriot act. its not just "me", its that i cant even recall a single story from a newspaper where a person was unfairly targeted or had some real bad stuff happen to them because of the provisions of the patriot act.

There is no way of knowing who has been targeted because of provisions of the patriot act. Do you think they tell people when they arrest them that the information obtained to make the arrest was a result of the patriot act provisions? So if I'm being wiretapped because I'm a suspected terrorist and they find out I have a grow op, will they let me know where they obtained the information after they kick down my door? Do you think information gathered is only used if it's terroism related?

John F. Kerry · 02-10-2011, 03:29 PM

^ thats a good question, i dont know the answer, id like to know the answer.

my guess would be that if u can show that evidence was obtained incorrectly, that you should be able to get that evidence thrown out.

it would be no different than if a cop searched your car without probable cause.... the only thing that prevents him from doing it is that the evidence will be thrown out later after he found it though, u cant stop him from finding it in the first place if he makes a mistake (or willfully wrongs you) by searching your car without probable cause.

so im not sure what the law is- but i think it should be that they only use it to prosecute terrorists and dont use it for regular law enforcement purposes... and i think that is pretty true, although im not 100% sure... I mean the NSA and all the secret surveillance organizations are not passing tips to the local police departments.... they are so uncordinated that NSA and the FBI couldnt even share enough info to capture the 9/11 hijackers when they basically knew beforehand. I seriously doubt u have anything to fear if your a closet pot grower or small time drug user, or other such small time things...

Im not being naive, its just that you have to give people some ability to "use their best judgement" even tho it seems cliche that every time we give the govt a chance to do whats best they end up fucking it up - i like to think , at least that it should be, if it isnt, something like a public trust.... where americans can feel reasonably un-encumbered and not- having their privacy violated by certain situations where maybe the anti terrorism force might once in a while listen in on your conversations but will ignore 99% of non-terrorism related petty crimes etc, and just basically not get involved with business that isnt theres... and it seems like they have done that. Do u know of any specific cases where what you're talking about actually happened? Id like to hear it? and im saying , if they have, thats wrong, but i think it should be the way im saying it should , not to never allow them to listen in and potentially stop terrible attacks.

actually im conflicted about it, the only reason i articulate this "side" of the issue like its my position is because i know you guys will take the other side. my real view is somewhere inbetween i think .

**SageTree** · 02-11-2011, 07:03 AM

Well J-dubya.... you didn't answer my questions about Libertarians.... but I'll let that go I suppose....

Now for the airport security comments and, least we forget, the boarder crossing since that was the first concern as part of my original comments.:

How isn't the TSA,of which the DHS is part of, NOT effected by the Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act of 2001?

There 'procedures' and how far they are allow to carry them, are a LOT easier for it, in my understanding.

Quote:

The Transportation Security Administration (TSA) is an agency of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security responsible for the safety and security of the travelling public in the United States.

The TSA was created as part of the Aviation and Transportation Security Act, sponsored by Don Young in the house and Ernest Hollings in the Senate, passed by the 107th U.S. Congress, and signed into law by President George W. Bush on November 19, 2001. Originally part of the U.S. Department of Transportation, the TSA was moved to the U.S. Department of Homeland Security on March 25, 2003.

Quote:

The United States Department of Homeland's Security (DHS) is a cabinet department of the United States federal government, created in response to the September 11 attacks, and with the primary responsibilities of protecting the territory of the U.S. from terrorist attacks.

Whereas the Department of Defense is charged with military actions abroad, the Department of Homeland Security works in the civilian sphere to protect the United States within, at, and outside its borders. Its stated goal is to prepare for, prevent, and respond to domestic emergencies, particularly terrorism

Quote:

USA PATRIOT Act, that was signed by President George W. Bush on October 26, 2001, dramatically reduced restrictions on law enforcement agencies' ability to search telephone, e-mail communications, medical, financial, and other records; eased restrictions on foreign intelligence gathering within the United States; expanded the Secretary of the Treasury’s authority to regulate financial transactions, particularly those involving foreign individuals and entities; and broadened the discretion of law enforcement and immigration authorities in detaining and deporting immigrants suspected of terrorism-related acts. The act also expanded the definition of terrorism to include domestic terrorism, thus enlarging the number of activities to which the USA PATRIOT Act’s expanded law enforcement powers can be applied.

And we can't be sure who is illegal, legal or a threat without the proper channels and searches... imo, the Act DID effect how I got through airports and the border, because all of a sudden it was a lot easier for them to tell me what I had to do to fly/pass through as well as the consequences of not abiding.... Legalistically... it had impact.

For one, I had to get a Passport (which I've put to good use) which means paying for and submitting to background checks, in order to get one..... instead of being able to use a Drivers License and Birth Cert. like all the previous times I've cross the border.

stoneric · 02-11-2011, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John F. Kerry

^ thats a good question, i dont know the answer, id like to know the answer.

my guess would be that if u can show that evidence was obtained incorrectly, that you should be able to get that evidence thrown out.

it would be no different than if a cop searched your car without probable cause.... the only thing that prevents him from doing it is that the evidence will be thrown out later after he found it though, u cant stop him from finding it in the first place if he makes a mistake (or willfully wrongs you) by searching your car without probable cause.

so im not sure what the law is- but i think it should be that they only use it to prosecute terrorists and dont use it for regular law enforcement purposes... and i think that is pretty true, although im not 100% sure... I mean the NSA and all the secret surveillance organizations are not passing tips to the local police departments.... they are so uncordinated that NSA and the FBI couldnt even share enough info to capture the 9/11 hijackers when they basically knew beforehand. I seriously doubt u have anything to fear if your a closet pot grower or small time drug user, or other such small time things...

Im not being naive, its just that you have to give people some ability to "use their best judgement" even tho it seems cliche that every time we give the govt a chance to do whats best they end up fucking it up - i like to think , at least that it should be, if it isnt, something like a public trust.... where americans can feel reasonably un-encumbered and not- having their privacy violated by certain situations where maybe the anti terrorism force might once in a while listen in on your conversations but will ignore 99% of non-terrorism related petty crimes etc, and just basically not get involved with business that isnt theres... and it seems like they have done that. Do u know of any specific cases where what you're talking about actually happened? Id like to hear it? and im saying , if they have, thats wrong, but i think it should be the way im saying it should , not to never allow them to listen in and potentially stop terrible attacks.

actually im conflicted about it, the only reason i articulate this "side" of the issue like its my position is because i know you guys will take the other side. my real view is somewhere inbetween i think .

Like I said, there is no way of knowing how the information is being used. If you want to belive that any non-terrorism information is ignored than be my guest.

The FISA already allowed them to listen to your conversations, it just took a warrant to do it. And they could even listen first and then get a retroactive warrant.

The vote on the patriot act was about extending the 3 nastiest provisions. The GOP leadership tried using a fast track procedure to get it thru which would call for little debate and no ammendments but needed a 2/3 majority to pass. They did this so no oversight could be added. So I'm supposed to trust these fucks?

And not to worry, there will be another vote in a few weeks at which time only a majority will be needed to pass. There might be some debate and some watered down oversight provisions but the patriot act will live on. And by the way, I like how the GOP leadership tried avoiding any opposition by ramming this shit thru right after promising us how things would be changing.

~1~ · 02-11-2011, 08:16 AM

Street level, for you and I, the 'Patriot' act has given law enforcement on all levels unprecedented abilities to infringe on our rights under the guise of anti-terrorism.

Especially if you happen to be of brown decent...

**SageTree** · 02-11-2011, 08:34 AM

Or a white kid that has betrayed your privilege.

I can't even cry 'racism or religious persecution'.

I'm just a dumb white kid who smokes dope,doesn't dress right or get hair cuts, like I 'should'....

My Life style isn't a Spiritual Path/Practice or Culture... which is more how I see it.... it's an infraction on 'normal'.

Does anyone else get asked 'Do you or have you ever smoked Marijuana?' nearly every time you cross the border?

Roach · 02-11-2011, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Indeed, while the usual Republican dissenters like Reps. Connie Mack (R – FL) and Ron Paul (R – TX) opposed the extension, it may have been impossible to do had not nine of the freshmen bucked the “safe” choice of voting for the extension and stood against the provisions.

Reversing the effects of the Patriot acts 1 & 2 would be nice too.

President Ron Paul
Vice President Donald Trump

other way around would work too.
Both are pretty good actors/salesmen...and neither are lawyers.

I love the word 'Actually' too,

but not as well as actuallyfactually.

Socio-democracy for evWEbody

Now If we could kill NAFTA...tax healthcare corporations (hospitals), and remove the government from education, 2012 could be a very interesting year...

with the end of the world and all.

create financing in order to make made in USA, mean something GOOD again.
this means engineers/workers skilled and unskilled, to rebuild American infrastructure, this should be more like a "War on Poverty" campaign.

like the WW2 savings bonds campaign. In your face 24/7

Then old demented Reagan's trickle down theory may have a chance, but on a grassroots level.

That homeless guy might be able to get a job making pizza for the engineer who was hired to fix the aging natural gas lines in Allentown, Pa. that recently blew up again killing 6 I think.....just for example.

Not wasting money trying to "war away" the 2000 year old social/religious problems between the Jews and the Arabs.

John F. Kerry · 02-11-2011, 12:22 PM

i would so totally vote for donald trump as president, and i think hed make a seriously great president. we need a ceo president to go toe to toe with china and teh BRIC countries. Honestly it would be the first step towards getting back to a meritocracy. Donald Trump for pres, maybe ron or rand paul for vp. and bill gates as the secretary of state or commerce.

it would be pretty awesome to have those guys in power- like kids in india grow up idolizing bill gates more than their parents or anyone else in the world- we really gotta start playing to our strengths... the same way obama energized the middle east with his presidency, trump would energize the business world, not just here, but around the world.

and trump is already friends with all these people around the world.... ud like to think he could get stuff done simply out of his connections and gravitas. not even as president, but if he was president too it would be like a crazy stacked deck advantage for him. i would love to see trump go toe to toe with the chinese.

**SageTree** · 02-11-2011, 12:29 PM

"Get Trumped! Vote Donald!!"

Speaking of trumped....

Roach · 02-11-2011, 12:53 PM

Trump is seriously considering presidential candidacy.

and I'm sure Ron Paul would be a GREAT asset.

elect both as co-presidents.

That's my dream team for now.

or if you prefer we could have a "Presidential Apprentice Show" lasting 4 years.

something you 'rarely' hear in HollyWood...

"I gotz a great Idea for a movie"

LOL

**SageTree** · 02-11-2011, 01:00 PM

So when do these cats start campaigning for the 2012 election?

~1~ · 02-12-2011, 08:55 AM

I can see inauguration day 2013 when the Donald turns to the assembled House and Senate and utters those now unforgettable words...

02-10-2011, 12:05 PM	#22 (permalink)
~1~ Successful Failure Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: where 'they' can't see. Posts: 10,925 Thanks: 466 Thanked 1,581 Times in 925 Posts	Google 'Patriot Act Misuse' and spend some time reading. It can go far beyond just looking into your shit and I'm sure not all of it is bullshit. __________________ "And those who are successful, be always on your guard. Success walks hand in hand with failure, along Hollywood Boulevard" Ray Davies --------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Click Here Asshole

02-11-2011, 08:16 AM	#27 (permalink)
~1~ Successful Failure Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: where 'they' can't see. Posts: 10,925 Thanks: 466 Thanked 1,581 Times in 925 Posts	Street level, for you and I, the 'Patriot' act has given law enforcement on all levels unprecedented abilities to infringe on our rights under the guise of anti-terrorism. Especially if you happen to be of brown decent... __________________ "And those who are successful, be always on your guard. Success walks hand in hand with failure, along Hollywood Boulevard" Ray Davies --------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Click Here Asshole

02-11-2011, 08:34 AM	#28 (permalink)
SageTree ~Kalyāṇa-mitrā~ Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: In Love Posts: 23,414 Blog Entries: 26 Thanks: 13,070 Thanked 6,769 Times in 4,664 Posts	Or a white kid that has betrayed your privilege. I can't even cry 'racism or religious persecution'. I'm just a dumb white kid who smokes dope,doesn't dress right or get hair cuts, like I 'should'.... My Life style isn't a Spiritual Path/Practice or Culture... which is more how I see it.... it's an infraction on 'normal'. Does anyone else get asked 'Do you or have you ever smoked Marijuana?' nearly every time you cross the border? __________________ "What's oppressive is letting your life be confined by old definitions of what everything is." -Zen Meister my_scatterheart YaHooka is.... Cannabis lovers from around the world pulling up a comfy chair, picking up a vaporizer, a bong, a brownie, a pipe, or a joint, getting high, stoned, buzzed or healthy. Uniting our minds in conversation...While Portraying a Positive Image of marijuana and marijuana users to the world. Treat your fellow YaHookans with kindness,respect and tolerance.

02-11-2011, 12:29 PM	#31 (permalink)
SageTree ~Kalyāṇa-mitrā~ Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: In Love Posts: 23,414 Blog Entries: 26 Thanks: 13,070 Thanked 6,769 Times in 4,664 Posts	"Get Trumped! Vote Donald!!" Speaking of trumped.... __________________ "What's oppressive is letting your life be confined by old definitions of what everything is." -Zen Meister my_scatterheart YaHooka is.... Cannabis lovers from around the world pulling up a comfy chair, picking up a vaporizer, a bong, a brownie, a pipe, or a joint, getting high, stoned, buzzed or healthy. Uniting our minds in conversation...While Portraying a Positive Image of marijuana and marijuana users to the world. Treat your fellow YaHookans with kindness,respect and tolerance.

02-11-2011, 12:53 PM	#32 (permalink)
Roach Victoria Aut Mors Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7,184 Thanks: 2,372 Thanked 1,987 Times in 1,509 Posts	Trump is seriously considering presidential candidacy. and I'm sure Ron Paul would be a GREAT asset. elect both as co-presidents. That's my dream team for now. or if you prefer we could have a "Presidential Apprentice Show" lasting 4 years. something you 'rarely' hear in HollyWood... "I gotz a great Idea for a movie" LOL __________________ לזיין את הקופים

02-11-2011, 01:00 PM	#33 (permalink)
SageTree ~Kalyāṇa-mitrā~ Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: In Love Posts: 23,414 Blog Entries: 26 Thanks: 13,070 Thanked 6,769 Times in 4,664 Posts	So when do these cats start campaigning for the 2012 election? __________________ "What's oppressive is letting your life be confined by old definitions of what everything is." -Zen Meister my_scatterheart YaHooka is.... Cannabis lovers from around the world pulling up a comfy chair, picking up a vaporizer, a bong, a brownie, a pipe, or a joint, getting high, stoned, buzzed or healthy. Uniting our minds in conversation...While Portraying a Positive Image of marijuana and marijuana users to the world. Treat your fellow YaHookans with kindness,respect and tolerance.

02-12-2011, 08:55 AM	#34 (permalink)
~1~ Successful Failure Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: where 'they' can't see. Posts: 10,925 Thanks: 466 Thanked 1,581 Times in 925 Posts	I can see inauguration day 2013 when the Donald turns to the assembled House and Senate and utters those now unforgettable words... __________________ "And those who are successful, be always on your guard. Success walks hand in hand with failure, along Hollywood Boulevard" Ray Davies --------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------- Click Here Asshole

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