The Rev

I'm currently reading the first volume of Alexis De Toqueville's "Democracy in America" and, considering it was written in 1835, this guy really had a handle on what made America special at that time, and what makes it what it has become. Written 100 years before the Progressive Era, he talks about two kinds of love of liberty: one in which social forces wish to see everyone elevated to greatness, and one in which they wish to see everyone brought down to the same level. And you can see, from a review of American history, where we turned from the first to the second.

It's an amazing book and you can get it for free from Project Gutenberg: Democracy in America ? Volume 1 by Alexis de Tocqueville - Project Gutenberg



The Rev

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zerodown

Bookmarked, will definitely read, but not now, classes started and I got tons to read.

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"I've seen people so poor all they got is money."

We have to learn to unlearn
Its not contradiction, its amendment
Not everything we see is reality
Not everything we hear is the truth
Not everything we're taught helps us grow
~Cultura Profetica

"La locura se lleva en la cabeza y las drogas en los bolsillos"
~Roberto Iniesta

OldMan&TheWeed

I had to read it as part of my graduate program forever ago.

De Toqueville and Plato's Meno were the two books that stuck with me the most.

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Nintey-three percent of what I say is brilliant, factual information and seven percent is complete bullshit. Have fun deciding which is which.

Roach

there is no universally accepted definition for democracy.

how can anyone create anything that has no stipulative definition.

if music is the art of noise , then democracy/politics (in general) is the art of bullshitting.

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לזיין את הקופים

~1~

The U.S. has never been a 'democracy', we are a democratic republic which I think means that although 51% of the people can fuck over the other 49%, if you have enough money, it really doesn't matter since you're not going to be on the side getting fucked anyway.

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zerodown

Which is why you have to read different definitions, so you can reach your own conclusion. I will eventually read this book, and compare what it says with what others say and with what I think I know.

__________________
"I've seen people so poor all they got is money."

We have to learn to unlearn
Its not contradiction, its amendment
Not everything we see is reality
Not everything we hear is the truth
Not everything we're taught helps us grow
~Cultura Profetica

"La locura se lleva en la cabeza y las drogas en los bolsillos"
~Roberto Iniesta

Roach

so the democracy I fight for may be quite different from the democracy say mubarak stands for.

oh I see, then it's all the same.

just a nice impractical/unobtainable/unsustainable/undefinable dream state.


I prefer socialism.

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לזיין את הקופים

Dr. Nick Nasty

I too had to read it in grad school.

His insight into the phenomenon of the mass mind is intriguing, if not sadly accurate...

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zerodown

Oh me too, don't get me wrong, I was just saying you can't ignore other people's opinion on ideologies.

Even socialism has its flaws, Im more of an anarchist, but Im conscious that anarchy is a utopic dream.

__________________
"I've seen people so poor all they got is money."

We have to learn to unlearn
Its not contradiction, its amendment
Not everything we see is reality
Not everything we hear is the truth
Not everything we're taught helps us grow
~Cultura Profetica

"La locura se lleva en la cabeza y las drogas en los bolsillos"
~Roberto Iniesta

OldMan&TheWeed

Socialism is an economic system of state ownership and control of industry.

A democratic republic (what exists in the US and most other countries) is a political system.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

There have been many Western European examples of a semi-socialist economy operating within a country ruled by democratically elected politicians.

Moreover, there are degrees of state ownership and control.

I would prefer socialism in basic utilities and services--things like water, power, education, (the norm in most countries) and yes. . . even health care.

I do not favor socialism when the state controls and owns the means of production. Divorced from the pressures of the marketplace, this kind of socialism leads to inefficiencies, a lazy work force, a lack of innovation, and poor quality products.

And for gawd's sake, please don't confuse socialism with its bully brother--Communism.

__________________
Nintey-three percent of what I say is brilliant, factual information and seven percent is complete bullshit. Have fun deciding which is which.

OldMan&TheWeed

Utilities on a Capitalist model: think

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Nintey-three percent of what I say is brilliant, factual information and seven percent is complete bullshit. Have fun deciding which is which.