John F. Kerry

ok like ill try to keep an open mind here, and i ask that you do the same.

because frankly we cant just have another loud argument and then go back to the way things were because no one can agree and everyone gets tired of arguing.


We cant afford (by we i mean cities, states, the federal government, any corporation that wants to consider adding jobs in america) we cant afford union bosses telling the people who have to meet a payroll what a fair wage is based on, you guessed it- how much they would like to make.


Who doesnt want to make more money?


These union people are out there saying these just absurd things. Now im trying to at least understand this if not be neutral because I just dont get it. How do unions, who are run by these fatcat bosses who are every bit as oligarchical as the biggest hedge fund guys- how are they out there talking about "shared sacrafice" and how raising taxes is 'the least painful option'.

Ok, its just a fact that we cant afford these crazy pensions that union workers have gotten over the past 40 years of liberal entrenchment in areas like healthcare, unions, and reverse discrimination.

I really am not against the people who want to work. And want to work hard and earn a reasonable living so they can have their children live a better life than they do - im not against that at all. In fact, I love that... I think thats the American dream and exactly what should happen.

So I just dont understand how they think that taking money thru higher taxes to give to union workers who already have crazily high unsustainable benefits and cadillac health plans will actually even benefit them.


In every non right to work state. the states where if you want to work in a particular industry you have NO CHOICE but to pay all sorts of dues , wait years, and pantamime the words of the union bosses at their every beck and call. In all those states.... employment is DECREASING..... jobs are being lost, wages are going down, despite the union grip.... because , quite simply, no company can be profitable when they cant determine what prices they can afford to pay their workers based on what they make for doing their business instead of being told what they MUST pay workers irrespective of how profitable they are.

Thats not nasty, or fatcattish.... if a company loses money for years on end because they cant afford to pay their workers 3x what toyota plant non union workers make in north carolina... what happens is that they go out of business... and instead of making some amount of money- the union workers cant do anythign but become proud 99ers....

So i truly do have not just empathy but a respect for a lot of union people. I know they are the people who do the jobs that in many cases make our country great. And Im honestly saying that I honestly believe that every time you have these strong unions what happens is that it fucks up the free market. Just like, perhaps to a lesser degree, socialism and communism do.

The problem is not that they are bad, or that they cost too much money, or that they represent the fatcat union bosses and not the 22 year old kid who would like to become a bricklayer but cant because it takes 10,000 dollars and 5 years to join the local 989. The problem is, that if you have workers demanding pay that simply is not on the level with what you can get for selling the products those workers make.... that the products will get made somewhere else... and ALL those people will lose there money.

So some of these ed shultz types talk about stupid buzzwords like shared sacrafice and how raising taxes is the "least painful option".... so what they want to do is raise taxes on the rich (not neceesarily a bad idea if put to good use) but all they want to raise taxes for is so they can SUBSIDIZE ALREADY TOO HIGH AND UN-MARKET-SUSTAINBLE WAGES....

I really think our country can and should come together and stop fighting all the time on all these issues. I think union workers are great, except for the union part. I dont begrudge them higher wages, if the company can justify those wages by getting more productivity or by charging higher prices for higher quality goods. But by the same token, to take a bunch of money from other places, and artificially create a fake economy where union workers can get these ridiculous high wages by taxing some people higher.... ultimately the only way that is sustainable is by continuing to bleed the horse till its dead, and at the same time, creating companies and worker structures that are getting less and less efficient because they are being padded and artificially created like some kimg jong il style fake city.

So im trying here to really bridge the gap. We dont have money. We dont have the money to subsidize workers for more than the fair marketplace value of their labor.... and if we do that, all we end up doing is making the problem compounded and worse, and ultimately setting those union workers up for even worse times down the line.

Im asking a serious question that I think some of u should consider. Is it better to have GM workers who have such high pension levels that gm goes bankrupt and lays of 20,000 people, or to have toyota in a right to work state paying their employees a wage that is still quite high, but something like 33 dollars an hour with benefits instead of like 70 dollars an hour with benefits. which is better? the gm plant that lays of thousands or the toyota plants that triple their workforce and bring tens of thousands of jobs that pay quite high relative to many other jobs, but not these glittering crazy high salaries that make gm union workers get paid as much as friggen doctors....

So can you people see where im comming from here and empathize with me? I dont want to hurt anyone. If these teachers in wisconsin are really hurting that bad how can they all come for 3 weeks and take off work to protest? i mean they sure arent living hand to mouth.... And then to make it some thing where its like a big mob of people demanding that they get more money- its like that south park episode..... WE WANT MORE MONEY.....but guys, we dont have any money..... DAMMIT YOU FAT CAT FUCKS WE WANT MORE MONEY NOW OR CANADA IS ON STRIKE...

so whats the solution? theres gotta be some way to fix this problem that doesnt hurt these workers too much , and that also puts us on a path to building a society that can work on its own, without having to keep topping off the union funding with more tax dollars to subsidize uncompetitive work that others in other states are happy and willing to do for a fair, still high wage.

i wonder if someone can answer this without resorting to the ultra liberal hate that ed shultz has been stirring up for weeks now. because frankly we need to solve these types of issues- and im not saying solve it with a republican idea... we need to solve it with a bipartisan idea.... so what is the idea. ? anybody ?

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Nasa under Obama

stoneric

I can only talk about the factory union since I've been involved with our local for 27 years. Factory unions wages are based on the industry. Union members at our local paper mill get paid much more than the machine shop union members get paid where I work. In both cases they just want their fair share of the pie. Also in both cases mamagement makes much more than the union members. The CEO of my company lives on the 5th hole of a local gulf course and you could fit my house in his fucking garage. He hires family and cronies and pays them much more than the highest paid union members and I'm sure other companies are run the same way. You lay all the blame on the unions as your bullshit statement about GM union members making as much as doctors attests but not mentioning the CEO's who ran the business into the ground walking away with 20+ million dollar retirement packages. So stop laying the blame on unions for the "free" market being fucked up when corporate greed is equally, if not more, the cause of the problem.

stoneric

But they don't mind the wars and the trillions we'll spend on them.

Dr. Nick Nasty

Unions: The People Who Brought You:

Childhood
The Weekend
Safe Working Conditions
Sick Pay
Family and Medical Leave

I could go on... Union Proud since 2005.

__________________

SageTree

Proud of the Union my Wife is part of and the one's I've been part of.

__________________

stoneric

I don't know if the teachers did in fact take 3 weeks off of work to protest but if they did, does that signify that they're rolling in the cash? Do you think anyone not living "hand to mouth" and able to survive 3 whole weeks without going broke is somehow affluent? And I believe they already took wage and benefit concessions but have a problem with the rag-on wannabe who wants to abolish collective bargaining.

mothernature

I thought the issue was that the governor wants to make it illegal for state workers to have unions.

I've heard of situations where union workers have agreed in pay reductions because the company was going under. I don't think unions are trying to bleed companies to bankruptcy.

Our entire country is pretty much bankrupt. I agree that raising taxes is 'the least painful option'.

JFK: your posts are way too long.

farmergiles

There's unions and there's unions.
The UK in the 70's was almost brought to a standstill by corrupt lunatic industrial action with little concern for the long term welfare of the workers.
Also that resulted in Maggie Thatch being voted in and destroying heavy industry throughout the country.

On the other hand I've worked in factories with no union and fuckwit middle management where a union was needed desperately just to get the job done never mind to uphold workers rights.

One factory one union is a pretty good setup imo.

If you've worked in manufacturing without any unions the need for them becomes obvious. Not just for workers rights but to work in an efficient fashion and get the job done.

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Cultivate a stoic calmness

John F. Kerry

mothernature , when u and they say "the least painful option" .but you mean....raising taxes on the richest people only, so thats pretty silly to say really , its the least painful for you and me, but certainly not for the people we screw.

Im not even in the stratosphere of one of them , so i dont care. But just tell me how do u see that as the least painful option? people in the north east already pay 60 percent of the income towards state and local taxes....what should it be? When you say least painful....do you mean least painful to me and you? who wont be effected by those higher rates? well.... how are we gonna have more jobs if we take the extra money out of rich people (who hire workers) pockets? Thats not a republican idea.... thats just like a basic principle of physics.

Its so disengenuous(sp) to hear the ed show and antony weiner say that raising taxes is the least painful option.... do they not remember that the entire tea party basically came into existance to protest just how painful those new taxes would have been.

but even if you hate the rich, and i have a general apathy for them i suppose, some are good some are bad, i wish i was one, but sadly am not.... but who imagines that they are some bottomless moneytree like the people on msnbc do where u can just keep taking more and more from them and to paraphrase chris matthews "they wont even notice its gone". maybe bill gates and 20 other super billionaires wont.... what about the rest of the people .... what about your bosses and my boss, what about every businessperson in every city in america who hire 2/3s of those cities residents to work at their firms. ok so i dont want to be the rich guys advocate because im not, this IMO is just common sense.

so tell me where im led astray

__________________
Nasa under Obama

farmergiles

Thinking unions necessarily obstruct efficient work practise.

Government bailouts of shitty management at GM and similar firms have more to do with their pathetic performance and products than unions have.

__________________
Cultivate a stoic calmness

DdC

Why Do You Think They Call it DOPE?

* Cannabis Hemp: The Invisible Prohibition Revealed

* The Elkhorn Manifesto

* Marijuana and Hemp: The Untold Story

* The Nation of Apathetic Puppets By John Pilger

* Maintaining Dysfunction

Early Morning Swim: Rachel Maddow on the Koch Brothers’ Funding of the Tea Party
n 1958, Fred Koch became one of the original members of the John Birch Society... In a self-published broadside, Koch claimed that “the Communists have infiltrated both the Democrat and Republican Parties.” He wrote admiringly of Benito Mussolini’s suppression of Communists in Italy, and disparagingly of the American civil-rights movement. “The colored man looms large in the Communist plan to take over America,”

Dissecting The Forbes 400 For Virtue And Smarts
Numbers five and six, the Koch brothers, scare me silly. They are far-right Republicans, indirect but major backers of the Tea Party movement. They'd like to see our federal government's power snuffed out: No income taxes and no environmental restrictions on oil and petrochemicals production, the heart of their business empire. Whereas Buffett and Gates use their fortunes to benefit the needy, worldwide, with medical care and education and no obscure political agenda, the Koch brothers are determined to force political change in the U.S. that benefits their pocketbooks.

The Nation of Apathetic Puppets By John Pilger

Long before the Soviet Union broke up, a group of Russian writers touring the United States were astonished to find, after reading the newspapers and watching television, that almost all the opinions on all the vital issues were the same. "In our country," said one of them, "to get that result we have a dictatorship. We imprison people. We tear out their fingernails. Here you have none of that. How do you do it? What's the secret?"

The secret is a form of censorship more insidious than a totalitarian state could ever hope to achieve. The myth is the opposite. Constitutional freedoms unmatched anywhere else guard against censorship; the press is a "fourth estate", a watchdog on democracy. The journalism schools boast this reputation, the influential East Coast press is especially proud of it, epitomised by the liberal paper of record, the New York Times, with its masthead slogan: "All the news that's fit to print." continued...

FOX NEWS INSIDER: "Stuff Is Just Made Up"

The Koch Brothers’ Climatologist

At the Cato Institute's website, one finds titles of such books, papers and studies as Meltdown: The Predictable Distortion of Global Warming by Scientists, Politicians, and the Media, and "A Harsh Climate for Trade: How Climate Change Proposals Threaten Global Commerce. Cato was founded by the billionaire Koch brothers, whose Wichita-based Koch Industries is America's largest privately held oil company. It's funding sources are a who's who of the fossil fuels industry.

Don't you think a reader has a right to know that—and that precious few serious scientists would accept employment there as a "climatologist"? Any more than most doctors would want to be the "public health specialist" at a tobacco company. Yet in this most recent article, USA Today only describes Michaels as "a climatologist with the Cato Institute," without telling readers what Cato is.

It's interesting to note the evolution of Michaels' professional title within the pages of USA Today. Prior to appearing as a "climatologist" in this article, he last appeared in an article in July 2010, as "climate researcher Patrick Michaels of the Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank"—a less scientific title, clearly connected with an ideological think tank. (USA Today could have gone one step further and let readers know that Cato is, with very rare exception, opposed to government regulation, period.)


David Koch is co-owner of Koch Industries, is a philanthropist and a chief backer of the conservative activist group Americans for Prosperity.

Koch brothers: The Medicis of libertarian politics

The Koch brothers’ impact on Americans’ daily lives is immeasurable.

As Jane Mayer notes in the current New Yorker, Koch Industries, the second largest private company in the U.S., produces “Brawny paper towels, Dixie cups, Georgia-Pacific lumber, Stainmaster carpet, and Lycra, among other products.”

As of 2010, Koch was worth approximately $21.5 billion according to the Forbes.

Scapegoating Public Employees — Wall St congratulates themselves
It should be clear to anyone with a little more intelligence than a turnip that the bailouts were nothing more than calculated theft from ‘the people’ in order to cover the inconvenient results of Wall Street’s greed and mistakes and to allow for wholesale robbery in name of protecting the system.

The billionaire Koch brothers' war against Obama

7 Ways the Tea Party Sugar Daddy Billionaire Brothers Are Ripping Us off

When a business interest funds an ideology the point is to use it to get richer and more powerful.

How influential are the Koch brothers? New Yorker investigates
The company is recognized as funding the Pacific Research Institute, that has produced several seminal studies designed to discredit and undermine AB32, the climate change law. But in this week’s New Yorker magazine, the investigation of the Kochs has taken a step further with a devastating portrait of the Kochs.Jane Mayer, the author of the article, examines the family's motivations and tactics in fighting climate change legislation, trying to debunk the science and change public perception.


The Donkey Edge
To date, various Republican candidates have endorsed Ayn Rand Fanboy a.k.a. Paul Ryan’s plan to eliminate Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and health care reform – all while giving the “deficit savings” to the top 1% in the form of tax cuts. Republican leaders have embraced Michele “Mad Hatter of the Tea Party” Bachmann’s plan to blanket 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. with subpoenas and motions to impeach. And just a couple of days ago, noted toe-sucker Dick Morris boasted that the Republicans will shut down the government over the next two years to block Obama at all costs.

Put this map on your blog - Muckety.com

The Koch Brothers' Climatologist Mon Jan 17, 2011

The other day, USA Today ran an article reporting that 2010 had tied 2005 as the warmest year since record-keeping began in 1880. That's disturbing data, or course. But what really caught my eye was who they chose to question the significance of the news: a climatologist with….the Cato Institute. That's a policy outfit heavily funded by the very companies whose emissions heat up the earth's atmosphere.

Koch Brothers Feel the Heat In DC, as Broad Coalition Readies Creative Action to Quarantine the Billionaires Gathering in California Desert
The news that justices Scalia and Thomas have attended Koch strategy sessions is adding to the growing buzz over a planned demonstration against the billionaires.

January 27, 2011 As the right-wing Koch brothers get ready for their billionaires' strategy session in Rancho Mirage, Calif. on Sunday, Jan. 30, big questions are being raised in Washington about the Kochs' relationship with radical conservative justices Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas.

Charges of conflict-of-interest -- particularly in the infamous Citizens United decision that opens the floodgates to anonymous corporate money in elections -- have been raised by Common Cause. Both Scalia and Thomas have admitted, according to a newspaper in Palm Springs, to speaking at private dinners hosted by Kansas oil tycoon Charles Koch, who, along with his brother David, has funded a wide array of right-wing causes and spent many millions on behalf of right-wing candidates.



Wisconsin Gov. Walker Takes Prank Call From Fake 'Koch' Brother

The 20-minute conversation with the blogger from the Buffalo Beast, whose site is down, is available on the Mother Jones web site. The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reports:

While Walker doesn't say anything that appears immediately career-ending, when the fake Koch suggests putting "troublemakers" in the crowd of protesters who've been at the Wisconsin state capitol for eight consecutive days, presumably to discredit them, Walker says: "We thought about that."

But the governor quickly pivoted, saying he and others concluded that real unrest might swing public opinion against him and that it was better to let the protests play out, that the media would eventually lose interest. His critics will likely jump on the fact that he didn't say it would be wrong.

That revelation that he would even discuss injecting agent provocateurs sounded, to me at least, like the most damning part of a recording.

Tax Cheats Bitching About Saving Taxes?

Pro Life? Not even anti abortionists!

Bushit Rumcheney Aspartame Cocktail
Fascist Nationalism and MKULTRA

Swine Flu Rumsfeld & Cannabinoids

About Ashcroft




14 Senators - a song by Ken Lonnquist (written 2-18-2011)

Put Up or Shut Up
So O'Reilly tells the lie that MSNBC is anti-american and gets a desperate guy whose public record with prostitutes makes him unemployable anywhere else to agree with him. And his devoted audience thinks they just learned something, which explains why a University of Maryland study found that Fox News viewers are misinformed more than any other news network viewers. A study that was not the first to reach that conclusion.

John F. Kerry

instead of posting quotes from the nuremberg trials and shit why dont u try to answer some of the questions i asked

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Nasa under Obama

John F. Kerry

heres a pretty pertinent article...

do u know that soon more than half of the mercedes in the world will be made in the good old usa....

but guess what.... they arent bring made in detroit..... or ohio....or new york....or michigan....

BUT IN ALABAMA....


why alabama u ask ? well because alabama , like north carolina, is a right to work, not right-to-union state.... and the result? well to hear it from you guys all those places in the rust belt are doing great because of their unions.....what good is an 8 hour work day when your unemployed? thats a ZERO hour work day.

Alabama's surge in exports driven by Mercedes, Hyundai and Honda | al.com


Alabama, a state many think is a backwater full of hicks- actually had 15.5 BILLION DOLLARS OF EXPORTS LAST YEAr.....holy fucking shit.... do u know how much that is ? and its all because of policies like this.... i mean im not saying these things to piss you guys off im saying these things to make you understand that if we want things to improve we should have policies that are already working wonders in some parts of the us.

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Nasa under Obama

Roach

LOLz @ Mr Kerry

but good point.

here's some fuel for the union/non union related discussion.
one mans "legal" point of view ?

Technolog - Indiana official loses job after 'live ammo' tweet


By Helen A.S. Popkin

Following a tweet suggesting riot police "use live ammunition" against demonstrators outside Wisconsin's capitol building on Saturday night, Jeff Cox is no longer employed as a deputy attorney general with Indiana Attorney General’s Office.
The official statement released today from the agency follows a report from "Mother Jones" detailing Cox's response to a tweet from the political magazine regarding riot police possibly being brought in to deal with demonstrators on Saturday (they weren't).

Taking issue with this response, "Mother Jones" staffer Adam Weinstein called out JCCentCom from his own Twitter account:

I confronted the user, JCCentCom. He tweeted back that the demonstrators were "political enemies" and "thugs" who were "physically threatening legally elected officials." In response to such behavior, he said, "You're damned right I advocate deadly force." He later called me a "typical leftist," adding, "liberals hate police."

Only later did we realize that JCCentCom was a deputy attorney general for the state of Indiana.

According to Weinstein, "Mother Jones" sent an e-mail to Cox's work address to confirm that Cox was the author of the tweets, as well as the blogger behind "Pro Cynic" (now disabled), where he "evinces contempt for political opponents," and asked if Cox wished to provide context.

Cox, one of 144 attorneys in the A.G.'s office, responded from a personal e-mail address: "For 'context?' Or to silence me? All my comments on twitter & my blog are my own and no one else's. And I can defend them all."

Screen captures to Cox's defunct blog reveal contempt for political opponents, Weinstein wrote:

... from labeling President Obama an 'incompetent and treasonous' enemy of the nation to comparing 'enviro-Nazis' to Osama bin Laden, likening ex-Labor Secretary Robert Reich and Service Employees International Union members to Nazi 'brownshirts' on multiple occasions, and referring to an Indianapolis teen as 'a black teenage thug who was (deservedly) beaten up' by local police. A 'sensible policy for handling Afghanistan,' he offered, could be summed up as: 'KILL! KILL! ANNIHILATE!'

Earlier today, People for the American Way called for Cox's resignation. Cox's "call for violence" is "beyond the pale," the national progressive advocacy organization said in a statement, adding that he "should step down immediately."

Following the shooting of U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords last month, an attack that left six people dead and a dozen others wounded, and the current deadly protests in Libya, it's unsettling that someone in the public sector would call for violence. It's worth noting that tweets and other Internet comments expressing anger over Cox's remarks come from people who identify themselves as conservative, liberal and all points in between.

Responding to msnbc.com's inquiry regarding the the "Mother Jones" piece, Bryan Corbin, spokesman for Indiana Attorney General's office, stated, "An immediate review of this personnel matter is now under way to determine whether the assertions made in the 'Mother Jones' article about an employee are accurate. When that review is complete, appropriate personnel action will be taken."
A few hours later, Corbin followed up with this statement:

Today the Indiana Attorney General’s Office announced that Deputy Attorney General Jeffrey Cox is no longer employed by this agency.

The Indiana Attorney General’s Office conducted a thorough and expeditious review after “Mother Jones” magazine today published an article attributing private Twitter postings and private blog postings to Cox.

Civility and courtesy toward all members of the public are very important to the Indiana Attorney General’s Office. We respect individuals’ First Amendment right to express their personal views on private online forums, but as public servants we are held by the public to a higher standard, and we should strive for civility.

__________________

לזיין את הקופים

Retry

unions didn't crash out economy wall street did what is it about americans constantly opposing things that are in their best interest?

DdC

You're a lapdog, why would I waste my time reading your gibberish when your entire ditto mind is summed up in the headlines? Stop being a lapdog for the Fascists. It won't ever trickle down junior. They do not do charity for the sake of the citizens. Never have and never will. A worker siding with the moneysluts over workers rights safety and wages is a fool or rich. Rich people don't waste their time arguing on message boards. It is happening here. Stop following logo's and symbol's. See what is happening not repeating fanatical gossip. Why would Unions exist if corporations treated their workers fairly? They don't and the same as a new stop sign happens only after several accidents. Safety nets only happen after many workers blood was shed and families suffered. Henry Ford's assembly line ate arms and legs every week. Who paid the medical bills? Who paid while they were out of work? No fucking one asshole. Kids working and smoke stacks spewing cancer in close quarters. The fucking lakes and rivers were catching on fire. You ever give a thought to the people living on a WV mountain after Peabody Coal removes the top of it? Ruining streams that feed the wells. Kill the trees and everything living in them. Regulations wouldn't be necessary if corporations could be trusted but they can't. Taxes pay for roads corporations wear down making profits. ER care is 10 times more than a good health care plan, including preventive care. Avoiding illness that Koch profit on treating. Sick bastards.

You side with the degenerate mother fuckers that dump toxic waste that your very own family drinks. Naive is the status quo and you prove it cheer leading for the greed. You trying to splain things to people really must insult the people on the boards. Any kid can see what the quotes, images and links mean. Your diverting only proves you have something to hide as do all of the Koch suckers. Billions in profit that trickles out not down. John Birch fear mongering commies and the same heads up their ass shitkickers falling for it all over again. Koch sells products that can be made from Ganja and Hemp. Koch sell products that create climate change. Koch as with any Fascist worth their salt. Use whatever means available to obtain their end goal. Profit. Cheap labor provides more profit, bust the unions while the individuals are never heard... You can't see that or won't see that, tells the story of jfk. Troll.

Teabog ditzo lapdog version, following blindly, head on the back of the ditzo in front, eyes straight, silence is Gold. Typical self imposed slaves drooling over self imposed moralists obedient to self imposed Lords of America suckering in tax payers to perpetuate this Presidents Day Prison sale called the drug war... Spoiled wealthy Koch heads busting workers health and incomes. Fascist moneysluts getting tax breaks while the infrastructures broke. Oxyrush meth rants firing up drunken fools. To scare the people with their gun talk if they don't get their way. Pussies. Don't question just do it. Just shut up and listen. Just do what I say not what I do. You'll be fine. Just keep shifting the blame and lying your ass off about dangers and the "future". The same future of yesterdays gossip is today and it means it's true, the drug worriers are lying sacks of dog shit.

Murdering thieves killing the poor they produced with their stigmatizing and lies to legislate the trickle down jobs out of the reach of Americans. In Thailand or Mexico or India and China with an endless supply of grunts to exploit. While jerking the flag and killing the country. Traitors should be dealt with. Start with old man Boosh before he's to Rayguned out to notice. Then his 6 sons, starting with Klintoon. Suckers for the Koch heads profit margin, Their entire value as a human beings is to lick the sweat off of the rich's balls, and pretend its a cool glass of water. Tax paid, then try to convince people to take a drink. Instead of making conditions better, just make em worse, then make them long for the lesser evil they had. Suckers fall for it every time it seems. Like a cycle of stupid sweeps through the land and the citizens bow and pray to the neon gods they made. With their heads planted firmly up their own asses they see, hear and speak no evil.

Fascism is the message the Romans inculcated and even symbolized with the fasces. It's always been a culture war and the bottom line has always been cheap labor. Fox fiends are just the most recent fascists doormats. Including Hitler's Youth League at redeye. No one on TV is pro anything concerning real America. Each has their own agenda and at best they are enemies of our enemies. Some are less against, but when the roots are poison, so is the fruit. This Ganjawar is only one leg of the beast. It has many legs. Some sell out for it and some succumb to it and most kick back and pop a top, turn on the tube and forgetaboutit.

Propaganda, Military, Prison, Pharmaceuticals and Wall St. in general are even more corrupt than ever and GOPerverts try each day to remove more checks and balances. Now some other groups are witnessing the underhanded tactics of the shiteaters. Women are seeing what stoners have been dealing with through the backdoor policy GOPerverts try to push by. Wisconsin is another. Dominated by a religion? Religion is only a tool the same as prohibition and slavery, racism and stigmatizing. Cutting student aid or pisstasting. Cheap Labor. The church hasn't had "power" since the reformation. Influence but little power outside of their own corporate ties. Religion views recreational drug use the way they're told. Same as the Pope concordance with hitler. Same as when Jefferson wrote about them always siding with the despots. They should believe in Free Will. Dude all religion is about cheap labor. Lincoln was no humanitarian, the industrial revolution produced machines that were cheaper labor than housing slaves. Hemp was removed by Anslinger and from school books by Bennett.

I thought moneysluts were retarded to protest clean air and now its protesting teachers and firefighters collective bargaining? Need more cheap labor. The Supremes decision to sell the country to the highest corporate bidder. Many red flags red herrings and fox redeyes divert. Stossel's an idiot selling the same venue as Harry Browne Rivers RIP. Oh they think prohibition should end? Well whoopee ding dong glad they see the light but they refuse to see why its prohibited and therefore will never actually see it legitimized. Perpetuate is the game, Winning is as bad as losing. If it ends, so do the profits. When you get out of school you might see how it really is. Shuck and Jive and ConPromise.

Both sides sell parts of the Ganjawar tree, but it still originates in poison. Meaning both sides profit and perpetuate the profits with tools like propaganda, lies, intimidation, prison rape, forfeiture, mandatory minimums and confiscations, cash in the pocket. But no amount of debate or compromise will add harmful entities to Ganja, just to justify lies. Again, prison slave labor or NAFTA/GATT or racism or union busting and the latest cheap labor GOPerversion is de-funding Plan Parenthood when abortions have been banned from Fed funding since the Hyde act in 76. More cheap labor in the poor sections.

Christianity No connection with Jesus. Same Roman Sanhendren and now Corporate Fascism. You seem to have a fair grasp of the propaganda but miss the point of who, what, why, when and where. The Christians, like the racists, are taught. They learn their wicked ways and its not to make children mean and nasty. Its profits. If I can degrade you then I get the job, the raise or the position. Or I keep you at low wages and no health care. Or send jobs to India and on top you find the same results as putting a Pot grower in jail for 10 yrs MM. Cheap labor = More profits. Actually Uncle Obombo gets more taxes if you're in prison than if you work at Burger King.

The drug war keeps competition off the market and profits coming in on war paraphernalia. Same with the Koch union busting. Appeasement is what most call "reform" You can't ConPromise on reality and end up with sense. Face it the Nazi's didn't loose the war they only moved HQ. Now they get people sick and sell them treatments. They invent crimes and rent cages to house the infidels. Nixon lied, that's it. Ganja has been physically and medically tested for hundreds of years and anecdotally tested for thousands of years. It is or it ain't and no debate is going to change the tensile strength or potency or attributes. Nixon lied and compromising with liars leaves you with lies... That small point doesn't seem to bother lapdogs. I listed hypocrisy as the GOPerverts most valued virtue. More abortions with pesticides and wars than RvW. Yet no one talks about it or that Hemp doesn't require the 90 million pounds of poisons cotton does. Sprayed in op rescues back yard. They just change the name. Or against gays but not prison rape? Or conserves are traditional but not enough for veggie plastic over iraqi crude oil plastic. I always stand by my posts dude. You'll have to better than showing me the Sunday paper or TV newz.

Al Capone and Watergate were red herrings to divert the countries attention from the Fascist acts of eliminating competition. Booze/Ethanol or Ganja//Hemp.

Hypocrites and their Apologists... tsk

mothernature

Well, the first thing is I don't think that raising taxes is screwing anyone. We can argue that point later though.

What I want to point out is where I think you are astray is when you argue the "trickle down" or "side supply" theory. It's already been shown that it doesn't work. Well, it works, as in rich people get richer.

And, btw, I'm pretty sure it is a Republican idea and really has nothing to do with basic principles of physics.

SageTree

Lots of good talk in the P&C threads last night.

Thanks folks.

__________________

stoneric

What do you suggest, we make all states "right to work for less states"? You really hate for the working man to get his fair share, don't you? Lets abolish unions completely, why beat around the god damn bush? And I'm curious as to the corporate pay structure in these right to work states. I'm thinking they match up well with their corporate brethren in the "right to union" states.

DdC

Inbreeding?

Kerry scab labor is scab labor. You whine like a schoolboy over "illegal" Mexicans undercutting wages and taking jobs. Same thing. Florida was a right to work state. That means no right to a fair wage. No right to whistle blow toxic waste dumping. No right to bitch about unfair treatment, or racism or equal pay for equal work. No right to the profits being made on the backs of the workers. Like I said, the game is cheap labor. Alabama still cages Ganja users for decades. Alabama doesn't make American cars, only foreign. But that only proves the Koch heads don't care about Americans. Only money.

They would sell out the country for a price. No, they are selling out the country for a price. GM was bailed out and is paying back the money. Where are your Wall St. masters getting bailed out? Giving raises to the CEO's while laying off thousands. Same mindset that would pisstaste a Ganja user. Self imposed slaves. Pitifools. If you remember the flick Gung Ho, when a Japanese car maker took over a small town factory in Pa. Production was the goal. Not quality or fair wages. Cheap disposable plastic over quality and non toxic materials is the way of life for the moneysluts. Henry Ford made a car body with hemp and soy that was 10 times more dent resistant than steel. You think Carnage and U.S.Steel want the competition? He ran it on ethanol or gasoline. You think Exxon wants competition? These are the moneysluts Modus operandi.

Its typical for you to see value in undercutting Americans so they need two jobs to make ends meet. Meaning less or no supervision for their kids. Meaning they will probably find trouble. What is so terrible about paying a living wage? The wealthy can get wealthy, just not overnight like the Koch suckers 21 billion last year. The goal is to live a life without diseases and getting hurt on the job. Not to make the rich richer undercutting the workers. Just like workers taxes paying for corporate tax cheats sheltered in the Cayman islands. Now the repuklicans want to gut the checks and balances called regulations. Stop paying taxes for the peoples infrastructure and not a word about sending it to the Military and Prison Industrial complex.

Obama is hopefully growing some balls by not enforcing gay marriage bans. Maybe he will see the light in not enforcing Ganja and Hemp bans. Maybe GOPerverts will treat Americans half as well as they treat their foreign investors. Doubt it. With Boner being such a moneyslut and the Teabog ditzo's so blindly obedient. America is doomed to fail. But don't worry Keery. Your Koch heads will be fine. Like I said their goal is not sovereignty, its world domination. They can exploit India and Thailand why pay living wages to Americans? If Toyota can produce cheaper cars by gutting workers health care bennies the moneysluts are dancing. Pitifools, like I said. Cutting their own throats to spite some ficticious bogeyman Becky and Oxyrush invented.

There are no commies left dorkman. Stop spending energy fighting what doesn't exist. It only diverts attention from what does. You see it being played out going on 9 days. You see who complains and cuts down the protesters. You see the damn protesters, they ain't hippies. They ain't even Ganja tokers I'd wager. Just run of the mill, TV watching tax paying employees. Yet Fox news can't leave it alone, they have to trash them as they did the dead veterins mothers. No class. No honor. Just greed and gullible followers. The biggest mistake of Lincoln was not letting the Talabamans succeed when they wanted too.

Southern man
better keep your head
Don't forget
what your good book said
Southern change
gonna come at last
Now your crosses
are burning fast
Southern man

I saw cotton
and I saw black
Tall white mansions
and little shacks.
Southern man
when will you
pay them back?
I heard screamin'
and bullwhips cracking
How long? How long?

Southern man
better keep your head
Don't forget
what your good book said
Southern change
gonna come at last
Now your crosses
are burning fast
Southern man

Lily Belle,
your hair is golden brown
I've seen your black man
comin' round
Swear by God
I'm gonna cut him down!
I heard screamin'
and bullwhips cracking
How long? How long?