France bans the veil

Terry · 04-11-2011, 03:06 PM

Burqa Ban Goes Into Effect in France - ABC News

So what are your thoughts? Believe it or not I actually don't really agree with this all that much. Kinda strange to support free expression by...banning free expression.

But on the other hand is the whole "how much should we change our own culture to fit immigrants taste" argument so I dunno.

Parallax · 04-11-2011, 03:18 PM

france is for the french, japan is for the japanese, russia is for the russians, you get my drift...

if you move to france (or any country for that matter) to live there permanently you must assimilate into the culture and become a proper citizen, otherwise gtfo. how dare any foreigner come to a sovereign country and demand them to change to be more like whatever shithole they come from.

stoneric · 04-11-2011, 04:22 PM

I liked France better when they refused to take part in the Iraq invasion.

Xil · 04-11-2011, 04:45 PM

how does putting something on yourself equate to "demand them to change to be more like whatever shithole they come from"

The Rev · 04-11-2011, 04:49 PM

This is a violation of the free expression of religion, plain and simple. The fact that alot of people in the West find the burqa to be symbolic of religious oppression is irrelevent.

The Rev

farmergiles · 04-11-2011, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

Kinda strange to support free expression by...banning free expression.

That's the french way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parallax

if you move to france (or any country for that matter) to live there permanently you must assimilate into the culture and become a proper citizen

If you are not volk you must be liquidated!

But seriously what's so scary about multiculturalism?
If people are law abiding citizens why should they be forbidden from wearing tents while shopping?

Captain Cannabis · 04-11-2011, 05:35 PM

no matter how long you live in france, unless you marry a french person, you will always be an outsider. this isn't really surprising news, though i think it is pretty sad.

Parallax · 04-11-2011, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Multiculturalism has been a controversial topic for many years. It was promoted heavily at the Catholic school that I attended, though the multicultural day made me cringe a little, and I was glad to have avoided it due to a school trip.

One problem with sensitive debates, such as this, is that people tend to read new stories that already support their point of view.

For example, more liberal people will be more inclined to read The Guardian, which will generally promote multiculturalism in a positive light. Whereas those with more right wing sympathies might read the Daily Mail, which is less likely to portray Multiculturalism in a favourable way.

This article will attempt to present a balanced view of the situation, by describing five arguments both for and against multiculturalism.

Please note that the five arguments against multiculturalism are what I've heard or read from various sources. They are not my opinions. A lack of willingness to engage peoples' fears about multiculturalism has, in my view, helped to maintain racist opinions. For example, when the BNP Party's Nick Griffith appeared on BBC's Question Time, the openly hostile behaviour of the whole audience actually helped to increase support for his party, as some viewers sympathised with the bullying behaviour that he was subjected to.

Five Positive Reasons Why Multiculturalism Should Be Supported

Different cultures have different ideas and characteristics. Merging these ideas can lead to a synergy that forwards human progress.
The developed countries have got where they are by exploiting weaker less organised countries. They should give something back to human society, by giving people from less economically fortunate cultures a chance to build a life in a more prosperous place.
Immigrants benefit society by bringing in new skills, and by being willing to do low level jobs that many locals are unwilling to perform.
A cultural mix makes society more interesting and everyone can benefit. For example, people can eat delicious curries all over the UK, and without multiculturalism this would not be possible.
A diverse mixture of races improve a nation's pool of sporting athletes, and success in international competitions leads to national pride. Some races possess physical traits that make them more suitable for certain sports, so countries with a diverse racial mix will have an advantage in sporting competitions.
Five Reasons Why We Shouldn't Have Multiculturalism.

Immigrants take away the jobs of local people, or undercut prices and therefore make it harder for locals to make a living.
Immigrants come here to claim benefits that should only be the rights of the local populace.
Immigrants do not try to integrate into local communities, and can make locals feel like foreigners.
People from ethnic minorities tend to commit more crimes.
Foreign workers only take from their host countries. They earn money, only spend enough to subsist, and send all their savings home. They therefore do not spend enough to benefit the local economy.Conclusion

The views expressed in the two lists are aggregated from those expressed by people that I know, and from what I have read in the media.

As a statistician, I find it hard to agree or disagree with many of the arguments, as there are rarely any figures to back up or dispute an argument, and the source of any figures would need to be checked for bias.

For example, pro multiculturalism newspaper might publish figures that show how much taxes foreigners pay, to support the argument that they benefit the local economy. However, a paper which wished to promote the opposite view might publish statistics that show the number of foreigners claiming welfare and housing benefits.

Article Source: Does Multiculturalism Work? Five Arguments For And Against

Captain Cannabis · 04-11-2011, 06:42 PM

does multiculturalism work in europe? not really

Parallax · 04-11-2011, 07:48 PM

i agree

Roach · 04-11-2011, 08:12 PM

I'm surprised they didn't ban muslims to begin with.

Admittedly, when I see a person (can't tell if they're male ,female or both) in all their black robe, hood, and mask, the first thing that comes to mind, is not Islam.

Xil · 04-11-2011, 08:28 PM

theres a girl on my campus who wheres a burka, and while it may seem wierd her showing a bit off a bit of hair strikes me as MAD SEXY where other girls walking around in much much less dont do it. i guess its the whole mystery/forbidden fruit aspect

...not that thats at all relevant

Parallax · 04-11-2011, 08:54 PM

ban or no ban those women are screwed either way. they're screwed if they ban it because that violates their right of self expression and screwed if they dont because the choice to wear the veil is really made for them by their parents who indoctrinate the kids into islam, which is also wrong imo. its a vicious cycle that keeps women oppressed.

**mothernature** · 04-12-2011, 02:44 AM

Well, here it is illegal to wear a mask in public, if you're over 16. There are a few exceptions.

I can't imagine it would stay popular within a non burka culture. Time itself will take care of that.

The first time a criminal used one to commit a crime, all the burka wearing women would be body slammed to the ground and uncovered, by the cops. So much for the modesty issue.

I also feel that if it is a religious expression, then we all should have the right to express ourselves. In the privacy of our own homes. Think of it this way....If my religion believes in snake handling, should I be allowed to carry a snake around with me, everywhere I go?

So I guess I think they should be illegal, in public, based solely on public safety issues and nothing else.

**SageTree** · 04-12-2011, 08:26 AM

Old story.... same idea:

Judge rules against Sikh challenge of helmet law

Roach · 04-12-2011, 01:04 PM

Quote:

If my religion believes in snake handling, should I be allowed to carry a snake around with me, everywhere I go?

stoneric · 04-12-2011, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mothernature

I also feel that if it is a religious expression, then we all should have the right to express ourselves. In the privacy of our own homes. Think of it this way....If my religion believes in snake handling, should I be allowed to carry a snake around with me, everywhere I go?

So I guess I think they should be illegal, in public, based solely on public safety issues and nothing else.

Priests and Nuns are allowed to express themselves in public with what they wear. Kind of hard seeing snake handling as the equivalent of wearing a Burqa. The public saftey issues are fear driven.

The Don · 04-12-2011, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mothernature

Think of it this way....If my religion believes in snake handling, should I be allowed to carry a snake around with me, everywhere I go?

That's the thing with analogies, you have to think them through.

If your snake is harmless, and won't hurt anyone: Sure.

Does the burka hurt anyone? No. It dosn't.

Does it infringe on other peoples' right to express themselves, or limit their freedom in any way? No.

Way to fuck your own ideals france.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

But on the other hand is the whole "how much should we change our own culture to fit immigrants taste" argument so I dunno.

Not a stab at you terrr, but how does a burka change a lands culture?

I remember they wanted to do it here in Denmark aswell, they drummed it up, and rode the train of fear mongering. An independt study then showed that only 3 women (that's three women) actually used burka. The impact, I can feel it!

**mothernature** · 04-12-2011, 02:47 PM

Well, maybe the snake analogy was a bit off. Snakes would fall under the "no pets" rule I'm sure.

Nuns and priests don't cover their faces and it's not about religion.

I don't live in the greatest of neighborhoods. If I saw a person with a burka, I wouldn't think Muslim, I'd think disguise. So would the cops.

That's what I'm trying to say. It has nothing to do with Muslims or terrorism and everything to do with muggings, armed robberies, burglary and the like.

We are talking about total coverage except for eye slits, right?

Roach · 04-12-2011, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Does the burka hurt anyone? No. It dosn't.

If you exclude fear and distrust, no.

remember it is a religion that actually teaches jihad, (yea it's in the book)

and death to infidels (basically anyone who isn't them)

Mohammedanism existed less than 1 year before declaring it's first Jihad.

04-11-2011, 03:06 PM	#1 (permalink)
Terry Hello Darkness Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Moscow, Idaho Posts: 8,539 Thanks: 2,130 Thanked 2,392 Times in 1,189 Posts	France bans the veil Burqa Ban Goes Into Effect in France - ABC News So what are your thoughts? Believe it or not I actually don't really agree with this all that much. Kinda strange to support free expression by...banning free expression. But on the other hand is the whole "how much should we change our own culture to fit immigrants taste" argument so I dunno. __________________ I don't know but I've been told, If you never die you'll never grow old

04-11-2011, 03:18 PM	#2 (permalink)
Parallax Admiral Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,739 Thanks: 160 Thanked 590 Times in 318 Posts	france is for the french, japan is for the japanese, russia is for the russians, you get my drift... if you move to france (or any country for that matter) to live there permanently you must assimilate into the culture and become a proper citizen, otherwise gtfo. how dare any foreigner come to a sovereign country and demand them to change to be more like whatever shithole they come from. __________________ FUCK THE ROBOTS!!! NUKE THE WHALES!!!

04-11-2011, 04:45 PM	#4 (permalink)
Xil OD'ing on sobriety Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Mizzura Posts: 3,334 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 1,037 Thanked 1,158 Times in 717 Posts	how does putting something on yourself equate to "demand them to change to be more like whatever shithole they come from" __________________ "we'll show these fascists what a couple of hillbillies can do"

04-11-2011, 04:49 PM	#5 (permalink)
The Rev Clear Light Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: In my head, somewhere. Posts: 17,867 Thanks: 5,019 Thanked 5,421 Times in 2,865 Posts	This is a violation of the free expression of religion, plain and simple. The fact that alot of people in the West find the burqa to be symbolic of religious oppression is irrelevent. The Rev __________________ Budforce - My Friend August 29, 1973- May 25, 2012

04-11-2011, 05:35 PM	#7 (permalink)
Captain Cannabis safety word: more Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: m.i.a. Posts: 13,922 Thanks: 2,705 Thanked 3,174 Times in 1,812 Posts	no matter how long you live in france, unless you marry a french person, you will always be an outsider. this isn't really surprising news, though i think it is pretty sad. __________________ fuck the monkeys

04-11-2011, 04:22 PM	#3 (permalink)
stoneric bougeman Join Date: Aug 2004 Posts: 5,646 Thanks: 704 Thanked 1,512 Times in 1,067 Posts	I liked France better when they refused to take part in the Iraq invasion.

04-11-2011, 06:42 PM	#9 (permalink)
Captain Cannabis safety word: more Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: m.i.a. Posts: 13,922 Thanks: 2,705 Thanked 3,174 Times in 1,812 Posts	does multiculturalism work in europe? not really __________________ fuck the monkeys

04-11-2011, 07:48 PM	#10 (permalink)
Parallax Admiral Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,739 Thanks: 160 Thanked 590 Times in 318 Posts	i agree __________________ FUCK THE ROBOTS!!! NUKE THE WHALES!!!

04-11-2011, 08:12 PM	#11 (permalink)
Roach Victoria Aut Mors Join Date: Dec 1999 Posts: 7,184 Thanks: 2,372 Thanked 1,987 Times in 1,509 Posts	I'm surprised they didn't ban muslims to begin with. Admittedly, when I see a person (can't tell if they're male ,female or both) in all their black robe, hood, and mask, the first thing that comes to mind, is not Islam. __________________ לזיין את הקופים

04-11-2011, 08:28 PM	#12 (permalink)
Xil OD'ing on sobriety Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Mizzura Posts: 3,334 Blog Entries: 1 Thanks: 1,037 Thanked 1,158 Times in 717 Posts	theres a girl on my campus who wheres a burka, and while it may seem wierd her showing a bit off a bit of hair strikes me as MAD SEXY where other girls walking around in much much less dont do it. i guess its the whole mystery/forbidden fruit aspect ...not that thats at all relevant __________________ "we'll show these fascists what a couple of hillbillies can do"

04-11-2011, 08:54 PM	#13 (permalink)
Parallax Admiral Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4,739 Thanks: 160 Thanked 590 Times in 318 Posts	ban or no ban those women are screwed either way. they're screwed if they ban it because that violates their right of self expression and screwed if they dont because the choice to wear the veil is really made for them by their parents who indoctrinate the kids into islam, which is also wrong imo. its a vicious cycle that keeps women oppressed. __________________ FUCK THE ROBOTS!!! NUKE THE WHALES!!!

04-12-2011, 02:44 AM	#14 (permalink)
mothernature ancientbongmaster Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,232 Thanks: 1,201 Thanked 809 Times in 487 Posts	Well, here it is illegal to wear a mask in public, if you're over 16. There are a few exceptions. I can't imagine it would stay popular within a non burka culture. Time itself will take care of that. The first time a criminal used one to commit a crime, all the burka wearing women would be body slammed to the ground and uncovered, by the cops. So much for the modesty issue. I also feel that if it is a religious expression, then we all should have the right to express ourselves. In the privacy of our own homes. Think of it this way....If my religion believes in snake handling, should I be allowed to carry a snake around with me, everywhere I go? So I guess I think they should be illegal, in public, based solely on public safety issues and nothing else.

04-12-2011, 08:26 AM	#15 (permalink)
SageTree ~Kalyāṇa-mitrā~ Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: In Love Posts: 23,414 Blog Entries: 26 Thanks: 13,070 Thanked 6,769 Times in 4,664 Posts	Old story.... same idea: Judge rules against Sikh challenge of helmet law __________________ "What's oppressive is letting your life be confined by old definitions of what everything is." -Zen Meister my_scatterheart YaHooka is.... Cannabis lovers from around the world pulling up a comfy chair, picking up a vaporizer, a bong, a brownie, a pipe, or a joint, getting high, stoned, buzzed or healthy. Uniting our minds in conversation...While Portraying a Positive Image of marijuana and marijuana users to the world. Treat your fellow YaHookans with kindness,respect and tolerance.

04-12-2011, 02:47 PM	#19 (permalink)
mothernature ancientbongmaster Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Kentucky Posts: 1,232 Thanks: 1,201 Thanked 809 Times in 487 Posts	Well, maybe the snake analogy was a bit off. Snakes would fall under the "no pets" rule I'm sure. Nuns and priests don't cover their faces and it's not about religion. I don't live in the greatest of neighborhoods. If I saw a person with a burka, I wouldn't think Muslim, I'd think disguise. So would the cops. That's what I'm trying to say. It has nothing to do with Muslims or terrorism and everything to do with muggings, armed robberies, burglary and the like. We are talking about total coverage except for eye slits, right? __________________ Sometimes sleep is the best revenge- Luke

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