John F. Kerry

sheesh. if lining up with honsi mubarak and the other dictators that are now memories last year with obama and declaring that israel had to accomodate those tyrants... (who are now gone, and anything they would have done would be completely undone anyway) if that charade last year wasnt enough, obamas just ready to bring his blundering ham handed and misguided foreign policy back to the forefront.

making speeches about the i-p peace process hasnt done a thing . a damn thing. for 70 years people have been making speeches about it- when the speeches by us presidents are good, they perhaps calm the situation. when they are bad, they start a new intifada.

obamas "give everyone what they need to hear" shit didnt work last year, it didnt work the first time he did it- but like a typical liberal democrat, he just decided to do the same fucking thing again expect different results.


so lets stir up palestinian anger with a big rose garden speech....its not like they;re pissed off enough already... lets have the president with the middle name hussein tell his arab brethren that all their dreams will come true, if only pesky netanyahu will just agree to give up the land that has kept them from being attacked wholesale since the 6 day war... then the death cult hamas (which is funded from tehran) will just turn to knitting peace sweaters from launching suicide attacks.

the only thing that could make the peace process go forward would be quiet progress. why is that so hard to comprehend? just like with big reform in america, we dont want to talk about a deal in the middle of it- to grandstand and take positions, because that just makes both sides dig in their heels... obama wants "everyone to jump in the boat at the same time so it doesnt tip" on some issues...but apparently here the "smart thing" to do is to present an ally with an ultimatum on the world stage that he is basically forced to reject. and then to act surprised when the other side exploits the division that obama so openly and prominently displayed for the whole world to see.

well... at least we only have another year or so of this crap.... at least obama wont go out as jimmy carter, thanks to osama, but one term of this crap is seriously all i can take.

obama's style that people talk so much about is actually about as smooth as sandpaper.

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Nasa under Obama

stoneric

The reason we lined up with those dictators like mubarak was because they played nice with the mother country. Of course it cost us several billion of OUR taxpayers money to do it.

I didn't get the same impression from obomba's speech that you got. Scolding the Palistinians for wanting statehood recognition from the UN and saying they should have a sovereign, NON-MILITERIZED state is hardly a slap in our "ally's" face. By the way, israel isn't really an ally, we have no official treaty with them just blind bipartisan support from congress.

What "quiet progress" are you talking about? The settlements expanding quietly?

stoneric

So why the expansion? When will israel feel safe? The thing that has kept them from being attacked wholesale is the fact we armed them to the teeth and they can crush anyone in the region in short order. And Hamas wouldn't be around without israel's help. It's like the bin laden thing, we backed him until he served our purpose.

Terry

Since Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated, Israel's been run by the far right. Netanyoohoo and his ilk are doing more harm to Israel every day they deny Palestine and its' people their basic, fundamental rights.

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John F. Kerry

i can only imagine what you guys would be saying if the navajo indians just started doing suicide attacks and demanding the return of arizona and said they were going to the un to get it. america was able to deal with that problem by handing out smallpox laced blankets to the inconvenient natives....(in other words through genocide) israel may be denying them their "basic fundamental" rights (like the right to import as much concrete for hamas bunkers as they want), thats a reasonable position to take i suppose, but compared to what america did, israel is like ghandi.

the middle east is such a shithole and the only country there that doesnt have oil and isnt in the toilet is israel. palestinians who always abstractly bitch about israel are employed by the thousands in israel to build the new settlements that they supposedly hate so much, because there is no fucking work for them in their own areas.... thanks to hamas's amazing economic plans with 50% unemployement. why cant arabs go to one of the other 25 countries that are arab.... they have to take away that tiny slice of land , even tho the arabs in syria and jordan are essentially no different than those who used to happen to live in palestine. and israel , despite the ablity to follow the us's example and wipe out its problem, tries to reason with them and withdraws from gaza, just gets shat upon over and over again.

... i was gonna just delete this cuz its kinda all over the place, but what the fuck, might as well post it. i appreciate both of your comments even if it seems like im being an ass. i like to hear the other side very much. and thanks to you guys for brining it in a constructive way.

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Nasa under Obama

stoneric

I'd be saying the same thing about the u.s. as I do about israel. You think this is a Jew thing, it isn't.

Grieves

Lets just carpet bomb the whole area, fuck diplomacy/peace...

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SageTree

ham hands are haraam/treif.

allegory intended

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stoneric

Not to worry, obombalot made nice with aipac and now bibi is "pleased" as are the traitors in congress who put israel's interests before ours.

John F. Kerry

...yeah, but all the real friends of israel saw obamas true colors, so even tho now he has no choice but to parrot everyone from boener to reid... the true israel supporters in the democratic party will remember this when the time comes, and thank obama appropriately

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Nasa under Obama

mothernature

So I guess the world should have let Hitler slaughter ALL the jews? After all, America gave the Indians smallpox blankets. According to your logic, no one who has done wrong in the past, has a right to say anything about wrong doings in the present.

What's wrong with going to the UN? Isn't that how Israel became a country in the first place?

Why don't YOU just move to Israel? Maybe their reasons for not wanting to move are the same as yours.

jfk, you give all jews a bad reputation.

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Sometimes sleep is the best revenge- Luke

SageTree

Seriously J....

The small pox infestation mid as well be ancient history.... now for a man who is always ranting about how out and outdated Islamic culture is, why'd you want Israel to be justified in their actions by using a 'method' (which is disgusting to infer) that is from our days long gone?

And it's TRUE that going through proper channels is how Israel got their 'home' back.

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zerodown

Israel got its land through the balfour declaration, not through the UN.

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We have to learn to unlearn
Its not contradiction, its amendment
Not everything we see is reality
Not everything we hear is the truth
Not everything we're taught helps us grow
~Cultura Profetica

"La locura se lleva en la cabeza y las drogas en los bolsillos"
~Roberto Iniesta

John F. Kerry

"So I guess the world should have let Hitler slaughter ALL the jews? After all, America gave the Indians smallpox blankets. According to your logic, no one who has done wrong in the past, has a right to say anything about wrong doings in the present."

no , what i said was, that america didnt "peacefully debate coexistance with its neighbors" like israel has done for 70 years. But rather, go to every effort to simply wholesale slaughter the native inhabitants of america... going so far as to have a supreme court case say that indians were entitled to keep their lands and the president (andrew jackson) said "the justice has made his law now let him enforce it" ... in other words ,totally ignoring the supreme court itself to continue the policy of disposession and extermination.

I didnt at all suggest that america was right to do that. Indeed, it was how wrong America was that is contrasted with what Israel does. And showing that israel has to suffer in many ways, from attacks, from people hating it, from the conflict continuing....all because Israel makes the basic assumption at the beginning of the argument that going the route america did would be horrible and wrong and out of the realm of what could ever be acceptable to them morally. So its for this choice, to not go the route america went, that israel has all these problems that it still has to deal with. But does it get any credit for behaving in a far more moral manner towards palestinians than america did towards indians? Of course not, in fact, people call it outrageous names and every time israel has to actually stop a ship brining in weapons or shoot a terrorist who tries to cross the border everyone just cries about how immoral israel is. Similarly, there has been literally no outcry whatsoever from the world about the illegal capture and detention of gilad shalit who has been held without access to the red cross or any contact with the outside for 5+ years. Do people have huge protests in europe and latin ameirca about how cruel hamas is for kidnapping an innocent soldier on his home soil and holding him hostage for 1/10th of his life without even any contact with anyone? But israel, despite the power (and likely the cover from the us) to take a much more violent and hard stance against those who act with violence towards it....instead they dont do that, but try to negotiate and withdraw from disputed areas....only to have every thing they do not counted and be told by obama (the successor of that lovely genocide indian policy) that they just need to give up more and the problem will be solved.

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Nasa under Obama

SageTree

Very true. It was a British Movement...

However: Balfour Declaration of 1917

But.....

It didn't all happen at once and I feel it's fair to mention that the League of Nations (1922) passed the British Mandate of Palestine and the UN (1947) passed the Partition Plan making the British Mandate of Palestine into two states

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SageTree

Wait.... what?

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John F. Kerry

...for that u need to brush up on your history sage. israel has never attacked the palestinians. they have been forced to defend themselves multiple times...including in 1967 when they responded to agression by egypt syria and jordan who threatened openly to annihilate them and push them into the sea- despite kicking all their asses in their attempt to end israel, and getting some of their land because the arabs gave up claims on that land when they went to attack and attempt to exterminate israel...despite that, israel gave back the sinai to egypt- and have enjoyed 30 years of peace but now likely renewed trouble against egypt too.... and they openly said all along that they would give back the vast majority of that land (which the dont have to because they won it in defensive conquest)...but they agreed to anyway.... and just withdrew from some of it in 2005 only to see that become a new base for hamas attacks.

what that quoted statement means is that if the palestinians had the ability to kill every jew in israel....they would....today....ju st like they would have yesterday, or in 1967, or in 1948.....israel on the other hand, could more or less easily do the reverse to them.... certainly the palestinians cant defend themselves against israel like israel can defend itself against the arabs....why do u suppose that is? why do u suppose that israel doesnt do what the palestinians would do if they had the power israel has and israel had the power gaza has.... answer- i dont know...morality perhaps? the lack of a martydom death cult? perhaps?...but the palestinians have been wanting to have a 2nd holocaust ever since 1948, and equally consistantly the jews have wanted peace and a 2 state solution like the one proposed and accepted by israel in 1948 and rejected by arabs at that time.....ever since israel has had to restain itself and the arabs have just attacked and tried to kill and humiliate israelis over and over and over and over nad over and over and over and over and over.....

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Nasa under Obama

SageTree

I think we have a different idea of what 'peaceable' means, don't tell me to brush up on my history.
I'm well aware that varying accounts, coverage and reports exist that completely agree with and that completely contradict everything you just said, and you should be too. Remove the plank from your own eye before you worry about the speck in mine.

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John F. Kerry

sorry, i was gonna put a disclaimer on that last one that i like talking with u even tho we're totally on the opposite sides of the spectrum here. consider this my disclaimer.

i appreciate that u are arguing with me and going back and forth- if people like us cant talk then what hope is there for the hard line likuds and radical islamists over there?

all the history aside tho it is a good question- the arabs have this idea that the land was stolen from them so why should they have to accept half of their old land? i may disagree with that, but the fact is , some of them think that.

so if you're israel and you know that many of the arabs wont even allow that they should be able to exist where they are....that the only just solution for them is for israel to cease to be.


israel has never said that their wish is for the arabs to cease to be. (at least not a high level israeli political leader). and this despite israel having the power to do to palestinians what the palestinians have wished they could do to israel for years...namely, wipe them out and take the other sides half of the land....


so if you're israel, watching that hamas is dedicated to the idea that you have no right to be there. how can u negotiate with them? its one thing to give up settlements and occupied land for a real chance at peace....its something different to give up a hard won buffer zone that guards against those people who dont think you have any right to even exist...and that you know as soon as they get that much closer, in their minds, it will only be that much easier to fire rockets on tel aviv and jerusalem.

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Nasa under Obama

SageTree

Before I read up on all that John, I DO like your tone and willingness to talk with me about this.
I don't know, as per the usual, that I'd like to be on a side just because of the information I present, as I'm sure you're well aware
Part of Peace, imo, is striving to see if not accept what both sides see as 'Truth', which I think you touched on above.
Cheers.

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