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Old 09-20-2011, 10:01 AM   #161 (permalink)
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People seem so one sided and judgmental
lol, they're known as republicans.
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Old 09-20-2011, 10:02 AM   #162 (permalink)
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Quote:
Is that number from your 'independent' study?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jewish Pork View Post
That's roughly the number of people that pay nothing in taxes.
ok.

Quote:
Could you post some links about who funded it so we can see how unbiased the folks are setting the determinate of 'poor'?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jewish Pork View Post
Poverty was determined by the census bureau set the poverty scale. Did you even read the article?
I did. Which is why I'd like to say this:

Did you read what I wrote here....

If you'd recall from an earlier post...


**Initiate flashback**

Quote:
Originally Posted by SageTree View Post
Read somethings about the measure of Poverty:

It's a little more complicated that the article presents....

The Census Stats are what the entire article was based on.

Quote:
The following are facts about persons defined as “poor” by the Census Bureau:

So....



Quote:
Quote:
Recent poverty rates and guidelines:
Quote:
The poverty guideline figures are NOT the figures the Census Bureau uses to calculate the number of poor persons.

The figures that the Census Bureau uses are the poverty thresholds.

The Census Bureau provides an explanation of the difference between poverty thresholds and guidelines.

The Census Bureau uses a set of money income thresholds that vary by family size and composition to determine who is in poverty.

The 2010 figure for a family of 4 with no children under 18 years of age is $22,541, while the figure for a family of 4 with 2 children under 18 is $22,162.
In other words... the studies definition based on the Census Bureau's definition is NOT was the CB is defining 'poor' as.

The study is making conclusive results/headlines based on it's own definition...


That is my Problem with that 'answer'.


Quote:
While this is ideal... it's not reality for everyone for some many reasons, and I'm not going to take the time to explain them to you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jewish Pork View Post
I don't want to hear you bitching about not having time. If I have time to rip apart your remedial arguments, then you have time to explain yourself....
irony levels reaching critical stage


You are bitching at ME for nothing having the time

Do you even remember saying that YOU didn't have the time, in this thread?

Quote:
If you really think it's this simple for everyone, and that everyone can just rise up, then yea... for sure I'd be wasting my time talking more about the causes and conditions of poverty and living on the line.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jewish Pork View Post
I don't support welfare programs for people who are physically and mentally capable of working and choose not to. It's that simple. I don't care if someone feels they're over qualified for a job or just down right too good for it. They shouldn't have a choice of sitting on their asses and collecting entitlements.
I agree, hope you don't think I'm implying otherwise, to you statements.

Quote:
Right? As in they get what they deserve?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jewish Pork View Post
No... It's just Darwinism, bro...
Well, thanks for explaining that.

I didn't know Darwinism had elements of Karma in it?

But...

After Darwin created... I mean... figured out how it all works... Did humans just stop evolving?


Can't consciousness evolve as well?
Maybe their will be a new 'fittest' someday?
Is that a possibility in your mind?



Quote:
This is just perpetuating the cycle you hate, so I see it as you can either
A. help people and society work on creating a better base line for everyone
Or
B. Continue to sit by and watch the havoc, cursing at people for 'stealing' your money and not being able to help themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jewish Pork View Post
I have no problem helping people. But I have a problem with supporting their dysfunctional lifestyles.
Define dysfunctional in broad terms.

Quote:
Oh really?
When did you get 'into' hard times and when did you get 'out' of them?
What were the circumstances?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jewish Pork View Post
Lost all of my college scholarships and dropped out.
I was living a dysfunctional lifestyle and lost some really good opportunities because of it.
I joined the military and got my shit together.
Glad you found a method to rise out of what you didn't like about yourself.
Thanks for sharing one man's journey to change.
I'm glad you were able to change and you felt empowered enough to do so.

Quote:
You can't recall gimme a break.

More often than not the people who I have helped out don't 'blame' anyone.

Dude I know veggies that have more heart than you....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jewish Pork View Post
I'm fine with that. I base my decisions on logic instead of "spirit" or "emotion" or whatever poor excuse for reason you use to make your decisions.

Way to take a swipe


Despite what you believe constitutes 'logic', I feel well within it's bounds and won't degrade your 'logic' or reasoning.

But go look up the word perhaps?


Quote:
well, I take by the artichoke comment... you have at least as much heart as my dinner does tonight
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jewish Pork View Post
Did you pay for that dinner out of your own pocket or use food stamps?
Do you assume otherwise?

Are you having a hard time why a person who lives well into a 'middle class' life style would want to support public assistance programs?


Quote:
Then I truly have a hard time believing that you don't really 'get' what I'm saying.... or else you must have one hell of an inward struggle about 'what is right' and 'what you think is right'.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jewish Pork View Post
I don't enjoy seeing people suffer; but enabling dysfunctional behavior is not helping them.
There is lots of research about 'harm reduction'... people's lives often don't 'clear up' over night like a bad fever.

I've said numerous times, I agree there are reforms that could be made.

You know this.


Quote:
They how do you start helping people 'rise up' and get 'out' of this?

It's not going to magically happen...

What action are you taking?

Are you 'helping' people by NOT helping them... making sure they 'learn their lesson' or what?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jewish Pork View Post
I am a firm believer that people will not repeat a mistake if they have reason not to. Entitlements are holding people back by giving them no reason to correct dysfunctional behavior.
Because ALL people want to stay 'poor'

I think you could use a dose of not generalizing so much.


Quote:
I don't get it man.... the range of what you said is paradoxical to me... and not like a koan where some meaning is finally settled upon....

I just straight up don't get how you want to and have cared for people, but seem to limited in to who and when you give it.


Well... Let hear how you'd like to man... this is what I'm trying to get at here.

I REALLY think you just don't want people to 'steal' your piece of the pie man....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jewish Pork View Post
I don't want my hard work being used to enable the dysfunctionals.
So, long story short.... 'yes' would have worked here

Quote:
I'd ask how they got there... but seriously... just answer the question...

Metaphors and analogies often distance us from the matter at hand.


WHY do you feel it's okay to let people fall on their faces?

If you aren't wrong, then don't be afraid to answer man... what's to loose by telling me what it's okay with out a metaphor.

I just want you to have to type out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jewish Pork View Post
I answered that one already....
You think you did.... but you talked around what you really mean with a metaphor.

But I'll live and let live... you're obviously done or not able to address some of the things I'm asking and will just consider 'seeds dropped' and hope you have a change of heart to some extent someday. That is good enough for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jewish Pork View Post
Now that I've responded to all of your questions (I'm pretty sure you knew what my answer would be for most of them).

I don't want to hear you or DdC whining about me not answering your questions anymore.
At this point, I don't really care to see if you did or didn't, because I know that answer to THAT one for sure.

So if I stop 'whining' about you answering my questions....


Will you just stop whining all together?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jewish Pork View Post
And I also want to know about how you get your money. I feel it's impossible for you to be objective in this discussion if you're receiving money from one or more govt programs.
Don't worry about how I get my money or what I do..... It's legal, so don't sweat it.

Just know I'm not receiving assistance from any Gov't programs my Friend, nor have I ever.

(Unless you classify student loans or a tax return as taking gov't money.)

Again though....... why is it so hard to fathom that a middle class household , My wife and I, are okay with ensuring public assistance programs.

You thinking that I must be on them or ever have been on them, to think they are necessary, is very telling of your position on the matter and BY FAR tells me more than any questions on the issue than I could EVER ask or hope to.

So thanks for beating the 'you must be on assistance' innuendo into the ground Brother man

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jewish Pork View Post
Of course people on the govt dole love welfare and think it's a great program. They're getting free money.

like I said above man

Hate to let you down and sorry you thought you were arguing with some one who was 'stealing' from you.

serious LuLz man





So all in all... I'm done with this conversation.
It's not helping me to understand you any further at this point.
We agree on somethings, and are vastly different on others.
I'm happy to just leave the seeds scattered lay and hope there is some growth at some point.


What is funniest and surprising to me most of all, and perhaps what made this conversation so irrational was you assuming/inferring that because I care I MUST be on assistance.



LuLZ dude.... serious LuLZ


Take it easy Brother and keep doing it your way and I'll keep doing it mine.

I don't/didn't expect to change you at all, but thanks for helping solidify and break down some of my stereotypes I have.

Cheers
SageTree
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Old 09-20-2011, 11:35 AM   #163 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by SageTree View Post
I did. Which is why I'd like to say this:

Did you read what I wrote here....

If you'd recall from an earlier post...


**Initiate flashback**



In other words... the studies definition based on the Census Bureau's definition is NOT was the CB is defining 'poor' as.

The study is making conclusive results/headlines based on it's own definition...

That is my Problem with that 'answer'.
These are statistics for the group which the census bureau defines as "poor." I don't understand why this is even complicated for you.


Quote:
irony levels reaching critical stage


You are bitching at ME for nothing having the time

Do you even remember saying that YOU didn't have the time, in this thread?
You obviously don't know the definition of irony. You would have been better served to call me a hypocrite. But that's neither here nor there.

What's here here.... I'd like to point out the hypocrisy of you bitching about me not answering questions that you, " didn't have time to explain," I work 12 hour days 6 days a week, take college classes, still find time for volunteer work; and I'd like some time for recreational reading, to keep my sanity (reading Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, since you're probably wondering [/conceitedness]); but I'm not trying to make this a pissing match about who stays more busy.


Quote:
I agree, hope you don't think I'm implying otherwise, to you statements.

Explain where you draw your lines and set your standards.


Quote:
Well, thanks for explaining that.

I didn't know Darwinism had elements of Karma in it?

But...

After Darwin created... I mean... figured out how it all works... Did humans just stop evolving?
Only after we set safety nets to negate nature's course.


Quote:
Can't consciousness evolve as well?
Maybe their will be a new 'fittest' someday?
Is that a possibility in your mind?
That's what I'm hoping for. I don't see your connection between evolved consciousness and supporting dysfunctional people.


Like I said before, and I can't seem to make this clear enough, I have no problem helping people who need it; but I don't think it's the govt's place to take from one person and give to another. Charity should have a degree of consent from the giver.


Quote:
Define dysfunctional in broad terms.
off the top of my head...

Not have a job because of inability to pass a drug test.
Not having a job because it's just easier to get free money.
Not understanding the value of education.
Wondering why the producing class doesn't want to just hand over their money for the sake of equality....


I'll let you just chew on those for a while.



Quote:
Glad you found a method to rise out of what you didn't like about yourself.
Thanks for sharing one man's journey to change.
I'm glad you were able to change and you felt empowered enough to do so.
It's why I willfully refuse to sympathize with people that refuse to do so. Being middle class in America is easy as hell if you have just a little drive and work ethic.

Quote:
Way to take a swipe


Despite what you believe constitutes 'logic', I feel well within it's bounds and won't degrade your 'logic' or reasoning.

But go look up the word perhaps?
I'll look up the meaning to a word, of which I already know the meaning, when you understand and practice basic grammar.


Quote:
Do you assume otherwise?

Are you having a hard time why a person who lives well into a 'middle class' life style would want to support public assistance programs?
You never answered any of my previous questions. I just continue to ask them.

Are you assuming that I'm making assumptions?



Quote:
There is lots of research about 'harm reduction'... people's lives often don't 'clear up' over night like a bad fever.
I've already stated that I have no sympathy for people who lack work ethic and determination to improve their lives.

Quote:
I've said numerous times, I agree there are reforms that could be made.

You know this.
Ok, name the reforms you'd support. Please be specific.


Quote:
Because ALL people want to stay 'poor'

I think you could use a dose of not generalizing so much.
I don't think they "want" to be poor. They try to take as much money as politicians will promise them. I'm generalizing that they will not work their asses off to make something of themselves. I feel pretty comfortable about this generalization.


Quote:
So, long story short.... 'yes' would have worked here
I'll try to be more curt with my responses in the future.




Quote:
You think you did.... but you talked around what you really mean with a metaphor.

But I'll live and let live... you're obviously done or not able to address some of the things I'm asking and will just consider 'seeds dropped' and hope you have a change of heart to some extent someday. That is good enough for me.
I'll spell it out for you. If a person is not working their hands to the bone to get off assistance. I support kicking their ass off of it.



Quote:
At this point, I don't really care to see if you did or didn't, because I know that answer to THAT one for sure.

So if I stop 'whining' about you answering my questions....


Will you just stop whining all together?
Quote where I whined....

I only apologized for not responding to all of your questions. I claimed that I didn't have time. I found the time when I was presented with enough incentive to do so.

Wow... People do shit when they have incentive to do so....

What a novel concept.



Quote:
Don't worry about how I get my money or what I do..... It's legal, so don't sweat it.

Just know I'm not receiving assistance from any Gov't programs my Friend, nor have I ever.

(Unless you classify student loans or a tax return as taking gov't money.)
I have no problem with people getting money illegally (as long as they're not being violent towards another person or taking govt assistance while they're breaking the law).

And I have no problem with govt subsidized loans for students. As I've stated before, I have no problem helping someone who's trying to better themselves. I'd also like to add that all loans need to be payed back unconditionally.

I don't understand why you are being willfully vague about how you earn your money after asking me questions about how I spend mine (charity questions). Please explain that.


Quote:
Again though....... why is it so hard to fathom that a middle class household , My wife and I, are okay with ensuring public assistance programs.
What would prevent you from donating the same amount of money to charity if those programs were abolished?

Quote:
You thinking that I must be on them or ever have been on them, to think they are necessary, is very telling of your position on the matter and BY FAR tells me more than any questions on the issue than I could EVER ask or hope to.
Quote where I actually accused you of being on these programs (asking if you were on them won't count).

Quote:
So thanks for beating the 'you must be on assistance' innuendo into the ground Brother man
Innuendo is subjective; but whatever....




Quote:
like I said above man

Hate to let you down and sorry you thought you were arguing with some one who was 'stealing' from you.

serious LuLz man
I never said I was; but apparently I'm the only one who can be guilty of assuming shit around here.

And anyone that supports programs that waste my money, are, in fact, stealing from money.

I'm glad you're laughing about these people laughing all the way to the bank with my money.



Quote:
So all in all... I'm done with this conversation.
It's not helping me to understand you any further at this point.
We agree on somethings, and are vastly different on others.
I'm happy to just leave the seeds scattered lay and hope there is some growth at some point.


What is funniest and surprising to me most of all, and perhaps what made this conversation so irrational was you assuming/inferring that because I care I MUST be on assistance.

You're, essentially, masturbating in this last quote.



Quote:
LuLZ dude.... serious LuLZ


Take it easy Brother and keep doing it your way and I'll keep doing it mine.

I don't/didn't expect to change you at all, but thanks for helping solidify and break down some of my stereotypes I have.

Cheers
SageTree
You're welcome.
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Old 09-20-2011, 11:44 AM   #164 (permalink)
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Thanks for talking the time to answer.

But, like I said.

I'm done talking with you dude.
I've taken what I can,
And explained all I care to talk about with you.

The middle fingers don't fly with me man.
I will not engage in a conversation with anyone who so persistently uses them,
Which I've pretty much let go up to this point.

So take care,
SageTree
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Old 09-20-2011, 11:56 AM   #165 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by SageTree View Post
Thanks for talking the time to answer.

But, like I said.

I'm done talking with you dude.
I've taken what I can,
And explained all I care to talk about with you.

The middle fingers don't fly with me man.
I will not engage in a conversation with anyone who so persistently uses them,
Which I've pretty much let go up to this point.

So take care,
SageTree

But you'll tolerate DdC's rhetoric because you agree with this ideals.

I don't wanna imply that you're a hypocrite or anything; but .
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Old 09-20-2011, 12:01 PM   #166 (permalink)
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JP you'll have no one left to harangue at this rate.
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Old 09-20-2011, 12:08 PM   #167 (permalink)
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JP you'll have no one left to harangue at this rate.

Definitely stealing that word from you!
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Old 09-20-2011, 12:11 PM   #168 (permalink)
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JP,

Any posts to me, by you, in this thread will not be receiving replies, just fair warning.

Cheers and enjoy yourself.
SageTree


Edit: spelling (wrong guess of what word I wanted to use)
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Last edited by Sage Tree; 09-21-2011 at 11:45 AM.
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Old 09-20-2011, 12:15 PM   #169 (permalink)
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JP,

Any posts to me, by you, in this post will not be receiving replies, just far warning.

Cheers and enjoy yourself.
SageTree
forewarning*
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Old 09-20-2011, 03:10 PM   #170 (permalink)
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Yep I doubt that stats as presented. I've actually done research on Heritage and how it works. It is an idea-lobbying organization first and foremost, not academic. The Liberal foundations and idea mills are just as evil-just funded by a different end of the ruling class.
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Old 09-20-2011, 04:43 PM   #171 (permalink)
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The Liberal foundations and idea mills are just as evil
They are less outspoken, fewer in number, and usually not as incorrect/well funded.
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Old 09-20-2011, 08:09 PM   #172 (permalink)
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^ I'd thank you, but i'd rather continually tell you how awesome your advice is.
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Old 09-20-2011, 11:07 PM   #173 (permalink)
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Sorry Kompressor is a moderator/admin and you are not allowed to ignore him or her.
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Old 09-21-2011, 01:05 AM   #174 (permalink)
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They are less outspoken, fewer in number, and usually not as incorrect/well funded.

Says who?
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Old 09-21-2011, 09:44 AM   #175 (permalink)
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Sorry Kompressor is a moderator/admin and you are not allowed to ignore him or her.
Are you serious! That is AWESOME!!!

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Originally Posted by Dr. Nick Nasty View Post
Yep I doubt that stats as presented. I've actually done research on Heritage and how it works. It is an idea-lobbying organization first and foremost, not academic. The Liberal foundations and idea mills are just as evil-just funded by a different end of the ruling class.
Thanks for adding this Dr. Nick.... pretty much summed up a lot of the bias/skew I was hoping to get at.
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Old 09-21-2011, 11:09 AM   #176 (permalink)
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Are you serious! That is AWESOME!!!



Thanks for adding this Dr. Nick.... pretty much summed up a lot of the bias/skew I was hoping to get at.

Why don't you ask him to do the same check on any of DdC's links?


And glad to have you back
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Old 09-21-2011, 01:59 PM   #177 (permalink)
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They are less outspoken, fewer in number, and usually not as incorrect/well funded.
The Ford Foundation, The Rockefeller Foundation, The Carnegie Foundation are all considered liberal foundations. They also fund CIA pet projects.

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Why don't you ask him to do the same check on any of DdC's links?
I would but they are too long and hurt my eyes (sorry bro, not meant as a diss). Regardless, I'm an anarchist, I don't have a dog in the fight as it exists. It's all kindof criminal to me.
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Old 09-21-2011, 11:17 PM   #178 (permalink)
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nice try.

Rockefeller became a lifelong member of the then-new Republican Party, and a strong supporter of Abraham Lincoln and the party’s abolitionist wing.

pretty conservative for a "liberal"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...st_foundations
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Old 09-22-2011, 02:26 PM   #179 (permalink)
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^not if we understand the Republican Party as a fundamentally corporate institution funded by burgeoning rail monopoly. Support for the abolitionist cause was seen as the opening up of a new (lower) wage labor pool-Rockefeller hardly was John Brown. Always remember the Republicans were the pro-Black rights party until the 1960s Nixon realignment. It can likely be argued that really until the 60s, the "liberal" economic party was actually the more socially backward one. Goldwater's wife was a booster of planned parenthood in its infancy.
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Old 09-22-2011, 08:28 PM   #180 (permalink)
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the "liberal" economic party was actually the more socially backward one.
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