John F. Kerry

Seriously.

I have said from the beginning that I didnt like the tea party just because it was republican...or that I supported it thinking that it would help rich people (of which i am not one). But that I liked it because it wanted government to keep out of people's business, to get our house in economic order to prevent collapse from social programs that anyone with a calculator, nay anyone with an abacus could figure out... and that it wasnt a republican offshoot, etc etc... but a broad expression of America's views and the big mass of the people.

Well, these occupy wall street people might well be the same kind of thing.

And Ill tell you my observation, is that as of now, when its pretty loose and not making specific "demands" like socialist demands etc, this is the time when it could basically go either way.

And I think if it becomes a broad based thing like the tea party, that doesnt try to strongarm its supporters into supporting specific liberal policies, etc...but rather is meant as an expression of discontent with the dysfunction in our government and our economy.... that if it stays the middle ground course and isnt co-opted by the obama liberals...who basically just want to use these people and couldnt give two shits about them anyway...that if they avoid that, I frankly don't see any reason why they couldnt join forces with the tea party and become one group "the real 99%" that actually want bipartisan, intelligent, solutions to our problems.

Like ive heard a lot of you guys on here, talking about how the protests are cool and shit...but also saying things like "well its neat but I dont think they really know what to do to solve the problem...etc.."... well. thats the way the tea party started out- we know the problems, but lets be careful and not just wrecking ball the whole system, lets carefully and consciously look at whats going on and find solutions to make it better. Meaning, get people jobs, get the economy growing, get gdp to grow, get consumers spending ...etc...

because if we had a better economy then social programs would flow from a better economy... so the whole thing comes down to how to make the economy better... and maybe different ideologies have different ideas... but its like, everyone saw how obamas marxist stuff about hating fat cats did- it didnt make the economy better, its just simple... that doesnt work, if I thought it would work, i would support it, but its not just that i dont think it will work, i OBSERVED it failing for the last 3 years.....

So i think of it like tea party people are older and whiter so they go to country music rallys and shit...and occupy wall st people are younger and more liberal so they go to rock and roll rallies in nyc... when it comes down to it, they all want the same things... and the groups waiting to "co-opt" the occupy wall street people- the fringe left, the unions- they created and had a hand in the mess....trumpka is a fatcat- hes not an occupy wall street dude- hes just using them like a 2 week old condom.

And I think that if the occupy walls treet people start to become more overtly marxist and socialist and stuff, they will lose support and become less of a force... its the open, accepting nature of the protests and the good natured-nes of it that has caused it to keep getting bigger and bigger... if it starts to become a really nasty thing, i think people will stop flocking to it.

So its actually kinda cool as of now... i like these grass roots movements of people demanding that the situation get better.... I think the more of them we have, the better we will be... But just like the tea party had to be careful to not become gop shills or else lose respect, I think the OWS people have to do the same thing.... just realize that we all want the same outcomes... even tea party people are mostly not rich and mostly not fatcats...and we all want basically the same things... and there is no need or reason for msnbc to pit the two great popular movements of our time against each other.... even tho thats like teh default thing they try to do- if both sides keep open minded, and shun the more radical members of their sides when they do outlandish things, then i think both sides will see that they have a lot in common...and if the tea party and the occupy wall street people could comwe together and agree on some policies... i think the unity they would have would be amazing, and could very well fix our countries problems, even the big, systemic ones... and it could be like a historical thing... maybe even the end of the 2 party system...

__________________
Nasa under Obama

Sir-Ex

having economies that always need to grow is a problem in itself.


How can you have an economy that always needs to grow in a planet of finite size? Does not compute. Perhaps you could explain that one to me.

__________________
Smile

Ditch the cigs!!!!!!

Sugar420

no i dont think they are the same. the tea party isnt grass roots, it is astroturfing, and it largely works for and is funded by antidemocratic neocon business interests.
OWS on the other hand seems mostly composed of powerless people resorting to a last gasp effort to have any political voice at all.

Galt

Sugar...shouldn't that moniker be sumthin' like "Sugar4waycubed"?
The Tea Party "largely works for and is funded by antidemocratic neocon business interests"??? Do you even know what a Neocon is, or are you one of these folks that likes to use labels 'cuz ya heard it applied wantonly by your fave on MSNBC. People seem to fall into the same trap with the term fascist. Many people use it, but few of them really know WTF it really means. I will grant you one point. Any intelligent business that wants to grow out of or survive this socialist nightmare had better be anti-Democratic Party, unless they're intending to stay on the gubmint tit/corporate welfare rolls (which have been grown and fed equally over the years by both pandering fuck parties). Beyond that, I doubt that most business owners have any issues with real democracy, not that it matters 'cuz we're a Representative Republic, unlike Greece.

Please provide the source(s) of your unassailable certainty. I'm not being a sarcastic smart ass now, I'm genuinely curious to know what you read or heard and wear to cause you to respond with the comments that you did. They honestly sound like bumper stickers from a Yobo rally.

The one thing that has always struck me about the Tea Party was the fact that there was no set dogma or "party line" per se, just a bunch of pissed off people that were tired of working their asses off to fund an evermore intrusive government that can't stop spendin' OPM. When they first began to be noticed the bulk of the 'movement' if you will, were essentially Ron Paul supporters. Small government Libertarians, the party that nominated Nader. Believe it or not, there was actually a time when the Republican Party actually did stand for such beliefs, but those days are long gone and mostly forgotten.

The danger was recognized as soon as they became impossible for the MSM to ignore. Just as it was suggested that the OWS crew is apt to be co-opted by the Obamanites, it was pretty apparent that the latest batch of Republitards were anxious to do the same with the Tea Party folks... and so they have to some degree. Hearing some Crazy for Christ clit like "Pray the Gay Away" Bachmann call herself a Tea Party "member(?) makes me wretch. And in the next breath the bitch is imposing her morals on America about whatever her zombie lord told her and spouting off about what Third World shit hole we need to "spread democracy" in this week. Same with all the rest except Dr. Paul and Gary Johnson. they all try to spoon that shit over themselves but it just rolls off of their oily asses.

Furthermore, when you have the national unions (our oldest form of socialist/government tit sucking) gettin' involved, and George "New World Order" Soros throwing his support in as well, it hardly congers images of powerless common folk. Just for a moment consider what their motives are. Do you actually think that they give a flying fuck about anything or anyone other than themselves and their agendas? Same goes for the GOP pretenders. The only reason that anything like "budget balancing", "sound monetary policy" or ANY mention of auditing the Fed is even being heard today is because of Ron Paul's efforts over the last 20 odd years.

Why do you think that the biggest Wall Street Bank givers back Yobo, backed Bush, and oh BTW give just as generously to Hitlery. Those three constitute the three biggest recipients of Wall Street largess over the last 8 years, and we're talkin' tens of millions of dollars to each. That'll get ya a lot of look the other ways and special vetoes when ya want 'em. Take a serious look at where the vast majority of past TARP and stimulus bullshit ended up...Wall Street made out just fuckin' fine. Other than them, the only other characters that never miss a feeding are the fucking unions. Just look at that pile of shit Jobs Act that the turd finally coughed up. What a pile of steaming shit! Union pay off and bribe on top of bribe, with a few bones to the Tort Lawyers for good measure. Infrastructure my dick!

Let me put it another way. Without a doubt, one of the most fucked up individuals trying to become Prez, other than the asshole who now rules, is that fucking idiot assed sanctimonious prick Rick Sanitarium... and he hates Ron Paul. That should be enough to make anybody see that dissin' the Tea Party, and the guy that essentially started it all (in its most modern iteration) is just playin' into the hands of the status quo.

Been down to the park, and there are some earnest Tea Party folks there, along with everything from communists to anarchists and lazy fuck whiners lookin' for a free tit. There are surely exceptions, and that's what the likes of Rachel Madcow and that goofy douche Olbermann live for, but the Tea Party is no more racist, bible thumping and whatever other stereotype you want to apply than the "progressives". Actually less racist if you stop to consider the effects that the Left has had on the condition of our cities and Blacks in America, outside of what they have done for themselves.

Lastly, please stop using idiom and tags that you do not understand the meaning of, it just makes you sound like an ideologue who is burping up somebody's wad. Neocon and the Tea Party? There is little or nothing that those two things share in common. Tea Party folks are NOT war mongering hegemonists, whereas neocons are. Neoconservatives include a number of Idiocrats because they favor government involvement in developing and maintaining social welfare programs, something that the Tea Party is most definitely fed the fuck up with. They do agree on free markets, but then again the Idiocrats also give lip service to this concept as well. Of course none of the status quo actually support such a thing, they just like to claim it as a part of their aura... just like the whole Tea Party mantle that you'll catch Bachmann, et al, trying to fit.

And FYI...the Tea Party groups that I've visited and listened to in my State all support the legalization of MJ. Nobody else is even whispering anything about that, and it sure as fuck won't happen with Yobo or one of the holy rollin' fucktards. No decriminalization bullshit, just real live Libertarian, Constitutionally loyal ideals about personal freedom and gettin' government out of our ass. Why would you wanna shit on that? Or are you gettin' a gubmint check every month too?

__________________
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
- Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
_________________

"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
- Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)

Sir-Ex

That's how it is.


I whip out the fundamental problems.


Ya'll get lost in the fluff.

__________________
Smile

Ditch the cigs!!!!!!

Sugar420

galt youre absolutely right, i didnt mean to say neocon at all. sorry for the confusion.

edit: what i meant was neoliberal. and by anti-democratic i meant against democracy
also, you need to lay off the ayn randism, because that's not reality, that's nonsense.


edit 2: Sir ex really brings it to a fine point. the problem is the unchecked free market making a commodity out of, and thereby devaluing: everything

Galt

You are supposing a static model of existing entities remaining intact and simply being constantly added to in perpetuity. Obviously the math doesn't work. As it applies to the dynamic state of, ideally, a free market economy, there are constant failures and replacements being dictated by changing demands.

The introduction of the automobile spelled the end for the buggy whip maker, but although the adage is worn, the last guy makin' buggy whips was probably makin' the finest buggy whips that have ever been produced.

Scales change, productivity and technology changes, and with it there occurs growth, and destruction of sorts. Consider what should have been allowed to happen with G.M. recently. They have been building shitty cars for decades and getting away with it. As the Japanese began building their industrial base anew following WWII, they had none of the baggage that Detroit carried. They were starving and desperate, which I fear we shall all have a chance to witness the motivational value of sooner rather than later, at the rate we're going... but I digress.

They developed reliability while Detroit slept. They developed fuel efficiency and lower polluting cars while Detroit lied to Congress to get a pass and delay upon delay. They developed a method for producing better over all quality that actually lasted...and people began to slowly take note. Their engines were built to tighter tolerances, so they spun in better balance at higher revs without wearing as fast as the sloppy tolerance, build it bigger and heavier to compensate - American competitors. Japanese body panel gaps were measured in millimeters whereas Detroit's were fingers and thumbs. The Japanese built quieter and better handling while Detroit built chuck wagon shit that lost parts rollin' down the road.

So G.M., the behemoth, moves with the alacrity of a three toed tree sloth. They counter Honda's amazing new CVCC, low emission, non-smog pump engined Accord with...the Vega and later Chevette? Ford, the Pinto and eventually a few imports that became popular under their badge, just as Chrysler resorted to the Mitsubishi offerings. G.M. just kind'a yawned and scratched their collective asses.

They gave us the Citation, with cast aluminum engine blocks that had hairline casting fissures that dripped oil like an old shovelhead, pick-up trucks with exploding gas tanks, and some of the most gawd awful ugly fucking pieces of junk to ever roll down the road. Relative to the other two they weren't ALL that bad, but they just refused to take the Japanese seriously until it was all over but the crying. So what do they do... well cry of course. In the 11th hour the plied Congress for legislation to make it harder for Japan to import SO MANY cars... so they shipped more trucks. Soon the 4 cylinder base Japanese pick-up was as ubiquitous as their passenger cars were becoming because there were no import restrictions thought necessary at first. Detroit just "KNEW" that Americans didn't want those farty little things.

The only problem was that those farty little things had strut suspensions and crisp steering. Functional disc brakes instead of all weak drums. Perky overhead cam - multi valved- engines instead of turn of the century push rod monsters. One got good gas mileage and carried shit. The other...well it carried more shit. So they go back and buy or blow some more "honorable" Congressmen to shut the door tighter. By now the Japs know that they've already won, so for their coup de gras, they move the plants here and try to teach the stupid lazy Americans how to build a proper car...and somehow succeed. Without the UAW to "assure a quality trained and motivated workforce" they manage to employ thousands and build straight up superior automobiles. Not as good as the ones built at home, but at least now the extra profits from the shipping savings can be used to pay for fixin' all of the American worker upfucks as their fading work ethic begins to show through.

Now the truth is, that if they had been "allowed to fail". the results would have been cheaper for us, and better for the economy more immediately. Just because G.M. goes bust, doesn't mean that the supply that they previously provided just disappears from the landscape. Quite the contrary, a better car will be found and purchased in their stead. That would mean opportunity for a new company, or for the others still standing to step up and fill the void. The remaining, healthier companies, that built better answers to the markets demands, would grow and strengthen. What we did was for all intents and purpose, the very same thing that social welfare does to the strength of a society when overdone. They both subvert natural selection and the axiom survival of the fittest. We put the weakest on life support and then wonder why everything is turning into low quality, non-competitive, none too smart shit. Works with people just about the same as it does with cars and industry, but folks aren't comfortable looking at that reality either.

We'll just keep dragging the shit along with us to the mountaintop. Problem is, we can't make it. We are now at the point where each intrepid traveler is trying to drag the financial burden of two (once you factor the gubmint, the wars and all of our social welfare obligations). The strong (like saaaay, the infamous "millionaires" of Yobama lore ... households and small business owners grossing $250K a year) haven't evolved fast enough to take on that kind of load, so it's time to set a few down by the side of the road and let'em walk on their own two feet or starve... metaphorically speaking...kind of.

__________________
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
- Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
_________________

"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
- Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)

Galt

Kind'a goes with the gig. Gotta throw 'em in there somewhere with a tag like "Galt". We can debate the relative merits of Objectivism another time.
Regarding the other edit, you still insist on attempting to label the Tea Party in all of its iterations to suit some notion of them being a negative force? How do you get "against Democracy" from anything that the Tea Party espouses, and I reiterate, we are not one of those anyway, but I'm still curious about your point.

2. So you guys wanna see the first ever successful implementation of a Command Market... eeew goodie?! So who's the incredibly bright boy that we're gonna get to do that? Maybe that guy Ben from the Fed...or perhaps that brilliant bullshit artist from Harvard? I seem to recall the Soviets tried that very model, and yet...in spite of all of that ORDERED and PLANNED bullshit, they still couldn't make a T.V. that didn't catch fire and burn, or provide enough black bread and lard to go around. Ummm, yum!

We do not have free markets, we have manipulated and contrived markets that our government and the Fed fuck with endlessly. Whether through stimulus and bail outs, or through Solyndra type loans to force winners and losers on the market, what we have witnessed of late is the effects of too much market diddling and not enough freedom in that regard. The regulation mantra is quickly wearing on my nerves, but it is accurate, and there are boxes and boxes of legislative meanderings that serve only to tilt the playing field to advantage the cronies of the whores. None of that resembles free markets. What it resembles more than anything are the twisted and corrupt market that was developed by the Marxist wonderland in Eastern Europe.

The most serious "devaluing" that has occurred anywhere in this is to the scrip we call money. Our currency is shite, and it's is getting thinner and stinkier every day. Market demand sets price relative to supply. How do you equate that with devaluing everything? I is cornfused.

__________________
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
- Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
_________________

"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
- Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)

Terry

I don't think JFK was saying their platforms were the same, rather that both movements grow out of a profound (and deserved) wariness of federal government and executive powers coupled with problems caused by those on Wall Street and the bankers who back them over the middle and lower class, all the while taking pay bumps and drinking champagne while watching the country burn around them.

They are both phoenixes rising from the same ashes, but if we desire real change we must hope they find their focus, and soon.

__________________
I don't know but I've been told,
If you never die you'll never grow old

Puffman

Galt clearly knows whats up.

However I'll contend with you on one point. Letting GM fail probably wouldn't have been better for the economy in the short-term. The immediate job losses would have devastating effects on the regional economies that GM props up. Also I don't know about the American bailout but from what I understand the Canadian bailout has been repaid in full and while I kinda hate to admit it, the end result wasn't bad. That being said I think long term it would have been better to let them rot, but politicians need to get elected every 4 years so that wasn't a very desirable option.

The whole idea of wealth redistribution makes no sense to me. Tarrifs, taxes, government "stimulus" spending, its all bullshit band-aid solutions that do more harm than good in the long-term, usually for the sole purpose of a politician gaining support or buying votes. I can't remember the name of the book but many years ago I read a nice analogy once that I think nicely sums up the primary fallacy of wealth redistribution:
A barber comes to work one morning to find that a local hooligan has thrown a brick through his window. The townspeople, standing around gawking at the broken window start to comment, "well if you think about it, this could stand to benefit all of us. The Barber will have to spend money to fix the window, and the window repairman will spend that money and so on and this will stimulate our economy!". This is clearly a fallacy because presumably the money the Barber spends on the window would have been spent on something else, like a nice new suit or a few nice meals or whatever. The only difference is that that now he has no choice.

SageTree

It's funny how opposing sides often mirror each other in many ways.

Thinking of the irony in the War on Fundamentalist religion waged by Fundamental Religionists. (You all know what I'm talking about )




I like it when people arrive at the same ends through different means..

My old boss... Terrorist/Arab/Middle Eastern (quoted as 'all the same thing' to him) hating Republican for instance.

Bought a hybrid to 'not buy Arab oil'...
I'd buy a hybrid car for other reasons relating to ecology.

But in the end, we both want to 'do something good for the world'.

And it's supporting alternative energy.

__________________

The Rev

Ah, another "Other Peoples' Money" fan in the crowd! Love that movie.



The Rev

__________________

Sir-Ex

I think to be a politician you must also be a swinger.

I think people who are okay with fucking each others' wives would be more able to problem solve together.

Maybe these sorts of people wouldn't reflect family values very well, but it's not like politicians reflect values very well at all anyways, so yeah.. that's just my two cents.




edit: oops sorry, wives and husbands. I forgot about the girl politicians.


reedit: oops sorry, wives and husbands. I forgot about the heterosexual female politicians.

__________________
Smile

Ditch the cigs!!!!!!

Galt

I would only respond that it was a feint. The recent partial Fed audit shows that much more money was delivered unto GM than they ever let on to, ... and the fuckers still found a way to fail. Just putting off the inevitable ala the entire Japanese economy and their "lost decade". Remember when they were buying up the whole world? That's gonna be how people look back on us in the not too distant future. I don't think there was much more that could be done to Detroit. It already looks like a third world war zone... on par with Beirut.

Yeah...there were just a couple of little tidbits with that one that escaped Congress' and our rulers' understanding, like the reduction in the size of their Federal government by something like 50%. Yahooo! Sign us the fuck up! Canada is also left just a tad wanting in the world domination, empire building and hegemony department. They need to just keep their fucking heads down and their hockey mediocre so we don't get bored and invade them next. Maybe then we'll get decent health care?

That's a classic, and yet another bit that escaped Mr. Obama while being indoctrinated at Harvard. This is why his Ag secretary and his Press secretary can stand in front of cameras with perfect sincerity and claim idiotic shit like; "Food Stamps actually stimulate the economy", and "unemployment benefits help grow the economy". I'm beginnin' to think that the real problem is just that Obama is simply and incredibly fucking stupid, and this whole leader of the free world thing is just beyond his little peanut brained comprehension.

You mean like the Republican homophobe that looks for homosexual sex in public latrines juxtaposed the out of the closet Democratic homosexual that runs a Gay whore house at home while fucking small business owners? They both have the same effect. I laugh!

Hey...the Crusades were "divinely inspired" yo! ... or were you referring to Bushies Crazy for Christ Cult forays into the Middle East?
Those fuckers scare me more than anything... except my government, and when the two come together as one - look the fuck out, we're all in for some Old Testament biblical shit!


That and Idiocracy should be required viewing for all!

OMFG... you had to go and play the "family Values" card didn't ya.
I secretly wanna be Gay, just so I can hunt down Bachmann's hubby and fuck him in the ass while she watches and tries to pray me away.

__________________
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
- Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
_________________

"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
- Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)

SageTree

Not exactly... more like Liberating Afghans from Taliban,
While putting restricts on Americans to 'protect' us from the Taliban.

Things along that line.

Haters using hate to end hate?

Derp Herp...

I don't get it?



I guess the 'irony' in that choice would be it's BOTH

__________________

Galt

Also gotta love that with all of the techno killing machine wizardry that we've spent and sent, and even with Yobo ramping up his iteration of the War on Inanimate objects... the opium fields of the Afghans remain as productive as ever.

But hey...at least they're gettin' all of the REAL criminals off of the street back here at home, what with the crack downs on weed dispensaries and what not.
What a load 'a shit!

__________________
"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
- Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)
_________________

"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity."
- Martin Luther King Jr. (1929-1968)

kamikazi89

i can certainly see elements of the tea party being fairly comfortable with these public events(ground level)

__________________
katie west is the best

SageTree

From what I understand the Taliban was actually halting some of the production of opium/heroin and that once they were 'toppled/scattered/engaged in warfare' or whatever you want to call it, the production levels spiked and the report I heard said that they basically over produced heroin for the next several years, which means good cheap heroin around the world since people aren't cutting it to make a buck.

Methinks there have been similar results with the Cannabis production/use in the country of Afghanistan.


Crazy.

__________________

John F. Kerry

good comments guys, i would really like to respond to some of them but i cant rite this minute, but some awesome comments, i will def get back at this when i have the chance

__________________
Nasa under Obama

wellfleation

When mice overpopulate they eat one another once there is no food left.

__________________
FIGHTPOWER