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Old 08-11-2014, 04:18 PM   #161 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by fenderbender View Post
Stretching it.

Giving iraqi-kurdistan, which is basically its own country within iraq, the means to defend itself is hardly funding a conquest.

Alternatives?
Out of all the groups in the area, the kurds are pretty much the most peaceful and tolerant of the bunch.
I dont see how you people think that we should just let things play out as they are, considering how much fault we have here.
Pretty much the only stable area in the country is being increasingly threatened.. And it is like 99% our fault.

How can we just let this group that as you stated has Our weapons, attack a peaceful area, and not take basic steps to help them?
i dont get it.

Sage, you dont think we should give the people a means of defending itself from such an enemy as the current extremists in iraq, simply because we have made bad choices in the past doing similar things?

I dont get how things can be so black and white concerning such matters.
I'm not really saying anything beyond, I won't be surprised if in 10-15 years,
shit gets real again, and it's the Kurds fault.

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Comparing the kurds to Al Queda is just absolutely ridiculous.

Because they are muslim?
They arent even arabs.

Besides the brutally black and white stance on this issue present, i think that some of an anti-kurdish-support-etc view has got to stem from lack of awareness/exposure or something? Cultural/geographical distance? idk man. Comparing helping iraqi-kurdistan to funding a rebel/terrorist faction shows this IMO.


However hypothetical, If somehow canada was getting invaded by russia, and for whatever reason was not able to properly defend itself, would you guys still think the US getting involved would be a bad idea? simply because of our past track record?

I think a different tune would be sung. We know that canadians are not terrorists. We are friends and allies with canada. We have close friendships with canadians.

Well iraqi kurdistan is our friend too.
And it isnt even russia, but a problem that we set the spark to.


this doesnt make sense to me.
I cant take such a black and white stance on the issue of our military presence, especially in the midst of a conflict we are fully involved in where countless innocent lives are at stake.

Just to be clear, I'm not brain dead about Kurds, come on man, seriously, ya know.
I used to work with 3 Kurdish guys, here in Canada, they loved I was from the States.
But that doesn't mean I don't think nice people still exact revenge.

Read about the Afghan-USSR conflict.
Shits was cool then too.
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Old 08-11-2014, 06:31 PM   #162 (permalink)
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The Kurds have their own agenda. They've got that "Greater Kurdistan" vision which includes more than just a part of Iraq. Nothing we do will result in anything good. That is the only given.
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Old 08-11-2014, 09:13 PM   #163 (permalink)
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well, in the end it doesn't matter what we think. the powers that be will do as they do. the track record has been pretty bad. The last humanitarian intervention the US engaged in was Lybia and that has been an unmitigated disaster
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Old 08-12-2014, 06:28 AM   #164 (permalink)
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I'm not hopeless here, but the trends can't lie.

Let's think out-layers here and hope we get one.
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Old 08-12-2014, 09:45 AM   #165 (permalink)
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well, in the end it doesn't matter what we think. the powers that be will do as they do.
yeah, im ultimately aware of this. Just futile thought experiment of sorts to discuss such things really i guess.


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I'm not really saying anything beyond, I won't be surprised if in 10-15 years,
shit gets real again, and it's the Kurds fault.
i dont see how this has anything to do with supplying the kurds with the means to defend themselves from a group attacking them with our weapons in a situation we created.

Potentially letting people suffer, when we have the means to enable them to defend themselves, simply because of a what-if situation.
So, simply because they have suffered great injustice in the past by their neighbors, We should just let them suffer further injustice, ultimate with us at fault, because if we help them survive them might seek revenge in the future?
wat

Supplying them with just the means to protect themselves is hardly arming a coup or rebel faction or committing to funding a future conquest.
It is simply enabling an already established area survive a situation we created.
An area and a people, who up until this point, have shown no inclination for the revenge you worry about facilitating.
And in fact have shown the complete opposite.

Before iraq recently re-burst back into total flames, Iraqi-Kurdistan was becoming a tourist destination spot even, with most of the tourists coming from within arab iraq (its supposed future enemies).
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Old 08-12-2014, 10:12 AM   #166 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fenderbender View Post
i dont see how this has anything to do with supplying the kurds with the means to defend themselves from a group attacking them with our weapons in a situation we created.

Potentially letting people suffer, when we have the means to enable them to defend themselves, simply because of a what-if situation.
So, simply because they have suffered great injustice in the past by their neighbors, We should just let them suffer further injustice, ultimate with us at fault, because if we help them survive them might seek revenge in the future?
wat

Supplying them with just the means to protect themselves is hardly arming a coup or rebel faction or committing to funding a future conquest.
It is simply enabling an already established area survive a situation we created.
An area and a people, who up until this point, have shown no inclination for the revenge you worry about facilitating.
And in fact have shown the complete opposite.

Before iraq recently re-burst back into total flames, Iraqi-Kurdistan was becoming a tourist destination spot even, with most of the tourists coming from within arab iraq (its supposed future enemies).


I'm not really speculating on the present, and maybe that is a bad thing?

But it's really my only sure thought on the matter.

I hope this helps less people suffer... these weapons.
But that sort of just sounds oxymoronic coming out of my mouth.

The other future reality is... we'll handle this when we get there.
But historically, it's likely we will.

Sound answer?
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Old 08-12-2014, 11:25 AM   #167 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SageTree View Post
I
I hope this helps less people suffer... these weapons.
b-but....


/me goes back to his cave to meditate and ponder the topic some more.



i mean i get what you are saying man and i totally agree, but at the same time i also think that yeah those weapons will definitely help less people suffer.
Even if oxymoronic in the bigger picture sense, a nation being able to defend itself without a doubt leaves its people safer and less prone to suffering.
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Old 08-12-2014, 12:08 PM   #168 (permalink)
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Get out and let the regional players take care of their own problems. The Kurds could align with other anti-ISIS players in the region. Iran and Syria would be more than willing to fight if we weren't busy stoking the civil war in Syria and kissing Israel's ass by our refusal to recognize Iran as a regional power. Adding more weaponry won't help, that's the reason these groups such as ISIS gain power in the first place.
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Old 08-12-2014, 12:34 PM   #169 (permalink)
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Get out and let the regional players take care of their own problems. .
Id understand much more so if this were truly the case. But it is very much so our problem as well ya know?

Ultimately i agree with you, but i dont think that not helping the Kurds should be how we start off this non-interventionalist strategy.
I feel the same way as you on the big picture, as the whole first half of this thread demonstrates, but for this select instance, and with how things currently are playing out and how they started, I still believe 'playing the game' is a better idea than not.
back to that black and white thing i mentioned.


i can understand how others can have a different view, but just sitting back and watching the kurds get increasingly fucked ultimately by our past actions and just hoping another country intervenes, just doesnt jive with me.
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Old 08-12-2014, 12:40 PM   #170 (permalink)
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b-but....


/me goes back to his cave to meditate and ponder the topic some more.



i mean i get what you are saying man and i totally agree, but at the same time i also think that yeah those weapons will definitely help less people suffer.
Even if oxymoronic in the bigger picture sense, a nation being able to defend itself without a doubt leaves its people safer and less prone to suffering.

The present fact is: Here we go. Let see how it does.
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Old 08-12-2014, 01:03 PM   #171 (permalink)
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To what extent are you guys against intervention?

Just military intervention?
Economic intervention? can do more harm even
Health aid intervention?


If one group was committing genocide against the other, would you support inaction, even though we could equal the playing field at least some way, simply because of the cycle of violence that might follow? Even if it was just supplying them with the means to defend themselves?
Especially if the group suffering was a friend to us?
I suppose it would be simpler to let one group wipe the other off the map, as it probably has better chance at ultimately eliminating the conflict. maybe. no opposing team no conflict.
That just feels hella wrong to me.


What about if one group, which has history of being oppressed by another group, was being attacked by a third party and threatening it significantly. in this case a virus.
Would you not support sending medical aid to the area, considering that if it survives the virus/disease it may become stronger and eventually decide to take revenge on its past enemies?

I feel like that can analogous to the situation with the iraqi kurds.


Of course the kurds have their own interests, and anything we technically do to aid them might help them achieve that goal.
Wouldnt helping the economy of an area through trade/tourism do just that as well?
Giving them money that they might use to buy weapons in 15 years?
Couldnt this be applied to everywhere?

(just want to say again, that the kurds have only shown the opposite concerning vengeful tendencies)


Im against sketchy meddling in other countries affairs, by funding rebels or oppressive governments to serve our own agenda, or brutal sanctions over mostly BS plutocratic issues, etc etc, but i cannot be completely black and white non-interventionalist, not in this day and age.
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Old 08-12-2014, 01:15 PM   #172 (permalink)
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Old 08-12-2014, 01:52 PM   #173 (permalink)
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Of course the kurds have their own interests, and anything we technically do to aid them might help them achieve that goal.
Their interests aren't limited to Iraq. So now we're pissing off Turkey. And after we route the ISIS do we continue to support the Kurds and their goal of a greater Kurdistan? Or is it on to the next faction that rises to power in this never ending nightmare? Get the fuck out and let the regional players take out the ISIS.
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Old 08-12-2014, 03:25 PM   #174 (permalink)
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Their interests aren't limited to Iraq. So now we're pissing off Turkey.
so what? Kurdish oppression in turkey is ridiculous, and the turkish government is as shit as ours. Worse.
IMO not nearly a good enough reason to not help the iraqi-kurds defend against our mess.

Are you against opening trade/tourism with a peaceful region(iraqikurdista n) , as it would be giving them money that might go to help fund turkish kurds and thus anger turkey?

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And after we route the ISIS do we continue to support the Kurds and their goal of a greater Kurdistan?
We certainly dont have to, nor would we really even be playing a part in the routing of the ISIS. We could still leave that to the regional players. We could simply just enable a (friendly) region to defend itself, or at least give them a better chance.

That said, i personally would support proper recognition of a greater Kurdistan, as they certainly deserve it IMO. But would not want the US government funding its creation. No way. Nor do i think we would.


Quote:
Get the fuck out and let the regional players take out the ISIS.
We can and should still do this, while also helping ensure the kurdish people are able to protect themselves from the fools running around with our weapons.
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Old 08-12-2014, 04:34 PM   #175 (permalink)
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Whether Turkey's Kurds are oppressed isn't really the point. You can't help one part of a faction without parts of the same faction getting restive. And since Kurds are spread out all over the region just helping the Iraqi Kurds isn't that simple.

The regional players aren't allowed to settle disputes and won't be able to until the outsider(us)is gone. Do you think that Iran wouldn't have acted against a militant sunni rampage if we didn't have them strangulated?
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Old 08-13-2014, 11:55 AM   #176 (permalink)
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Whether Turkey's Kurds are oppressed isn't really the point. You can't help one part of a faction without parts of the same faction getting restive. And since Kurds are spread out all over the region just helping the Iraqi Kurds isn't that simple.

The regional players aren't allowed to settle disputes and won't be able to until the outsider(us)is gone. Do you think that Iran wouldn't have acted against a militant sunni rampage if we didn't have them strangulated?

Letting the regional players handle it would likely be horrible news for the kurds. All those regional players have a good history of brutal oppression and even genocide against them.

Your excuse of not wanting to piss off turkey holds minimal weight as well IMO. And honestly, why do you care if we piss off the corrupt turkish government a bit? Especially if it stems from helping a peaceful region maintain, or eventually slightly fuels the fight against turkish-kurd oppression.

Yes there is a greater Kurdistan, and yes kurdish interests and people span borders, but honestly Iraqi-Kurdistan mainly exists as a separate and autonomous region. Helping secure iraqi-kurd defences, does not automatically fund a revolution in iran or turkey. Especially not when all of their efforts will be focused on repelling their own threat within Iraq.


And again, do you disapprove of opening trade with iraqi-kurdistan stoneric?
As it would fuel their economy and thus by the same logic fuel the kurds in turkey and anger turkey? Improving their economy and allow their oil to be bought and sold etc etc, would likely do Far more in empowering the kurds than some weapons would.

If so, would that not be sanctioning them and more shitty intervention?


(not trying to argue with anyone. Just have discussion. The nature of foreign 'intervention' is a very complex beast in this day and age)
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Old 08-13-2014, 12:31 PM   #177 (permalink)
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So at what point do the regional players decide regional matters? If the Kurds will always be in peril, do we commit to protecting them ad infinitum?

I'm not defending Turkey, although they are an ally, just pointing out the domino effect that taking sides in regional disputes halfway around the world produces.

Helping the Kurds in Iraq will embolden the Kurds elsewhere. Do you think these countries will stand idly by while the Kurds declare their independence?

If we do business with the Saudis, we should do business with anyone. And doing business with Iraq's Kurds won't be seen in the same light as giving military support so I don't really see how that could fuel dissent with Kurds in Turkey.

I'm not trying to argue either and I actually think you are only concerned about saving lives. Unfortunately everything we touch turns to shit.
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Old 08-15-2014, 04:02 PM   #178 (permalink)
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ah yea. i see no evidence the kurds are out-manned or over-matched weapons-wise when it comes to ISIS..if you have any evidence to the contrary i'm open minded enough to take a look at it..

you are coming accross as a liberal hawk, which seems to be the direction the Dems are moving towards
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