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Old 04-23-2015, 04:48 PM   #1 (permalink)
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What Do We Really Know About Roundup Weed Killer?

What Do We Really Know About Roundup Weed Killer?



The world’s most widely-used herbicide has been getting a lot of attention lately.

Last month, an international agency declared glyphosate, the primary ingredient in the popular product Roundup, a “probable human carcinogen.” The weed killer also has made recent headlines for its widespread use on genetically modified seeds and research that links it to antibiotics resistance and hormone disruption. Several national governments are planning to restrict its use, and some school districts are talking about banning it.

So what do we know about glyphosate? Five key questions and answers:
How Is Glyphosate Used?

Introduced commercially by Monsanto in 1974, glyphosate kills weeds by blocking proteins essential to plant growth. It is now used in more than 160 countries, with more than 1.4 billion pounds applied per year.

Glyphosate, often sold under the brand name Roundup, is probably in your garage or shed because it’s ranked as the second most widely used U.S. lawn and garden weed killer. These products have been promoted as easy-to-use and effective on poison ivy, kudzu, dandelions, and other weeds.

But the primary use is by agriculture. Nearly all the corn, soy, and cotton now grown in the United States is treated with glyphosate.

Its use skyrocketed after seeds were genetically engineered to tolerate the chemical. Because these seeds produce plants that are not killed by glyphosate, farmers can apply the weed killer to entire fields without worrying about destroying crops. Between 1987 and 2012, annual U.S. farm use grew from less than 11 million pounds to nearly 300 million pounds.

“By far the vast use is on [genetically engineered] crops – corn, soy and cotton – that took off in the early to mid-nineties,” says Robert Gilliom, chief of surface water assessment for the US Geological Survey’s National Water Quality Assessment Program.

In addition, some five million acres in California were treated with glyphosate in 2012 to grow almonds, peaches, onions, cantaloupe, cherries, sweet corn, citrus, grapes, and other edible crops.
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Old 04-23-2015, 06:40 PM   #2 (permalink)
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It's garbage!!

Ban it
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Old 04-24-2015, 05:03 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I'm pretty sure that it IS illegal for private use in Canada.
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Old 04-24-2015, 03:43 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Die Monsanto, Die.
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Old 04-24-2015, 03:55 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I'll say that I've seen the stuff used to manage pond lily overgrowth and it's amazing how fast and effective it is. I shudder to think what it's doing to the fish. It wasn't my decision to see it used.

I'll also say I have an uncle who grows corn and soy. He supports fracking and wants to sell a piece of his land to a surveyor to build a well, but to hear him talk about Roundup and the environment you'd think he'd achieved Sage's level of hippie status.
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Old 04-24-2015, 04:06 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I believe it's deactivated by soil. It only effects plants when sprayed on foliage, so it won't accumulate in the ground. I've heard that even a cup of clay will deactivate a whole large tank of the stuff. Not that it's harmless but it's not as bad as people seem to think. I believe it has a place in modern industrial agriculture.
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Old 04-24-2015, 08:28 PM   #7 (permalink)
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If it boosts agricultural yields by nearly 30x then its hard to argue against. However that number likely reflects a whole lot more changes than just round up (in particular genetically modified crops).

Sage I don't know about all of Canada, but it is banned in Ontario, for personal use anyways, and I believe agricultural too but I don't know for sure.
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Old 04-25-2015, 05:12 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by kitch View Post
I believe it's deactivated by soil. It only effects plants when sprayed on foliage, so it won't accumulate in the ground. I've heard that even a cup of clay will deactivate a whole large tank of the stuff. Not that it's harmless but it's not as bad as people seem to think. I believe it has a place in modern industrial agriculture.
Don't know about that...I have to admit I have used it, unfortunately... 2 different times over the years, the grass overwhelmed areas of my veggie garden, when things were going on and I wasn't able to be as vigilant as I should have been... I sprayed the grass very close to the ground, so no over-spray, and not too close to my plants, mostly tomatoes, the next thing I knew the tomato plants looked like some kind of mutant from outer space...twisted, knarled branches, curling and looking gross, completely screwed them up. The last time, I knew my tomatoes had done this before, but didn't have a clue as to what the cause might be...until my supervisor mentioned the RoundUp probably got in the soil, then I remembered, both times the situation was the same, so I am sure that's what it was...
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Old 04-25-2015, 10:01 AM   #9 (permalink)
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but to hear him talk about Roundup and the environment you'd think he'd achieved Sage's level of hippie status.
definitely mythical proportions there for sure

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Sage I don't know about all of Canada, but it is banned in Ontario, for personal use anyways, and I believe agricultural too but I don't know for sure.
I know in BC it is.... personal-wise.... but commercially, for landscaping,
I feel like an boss my mine used it.
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Old 04-28-2015, 04:01 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
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I believe it's deactivated by soil. It only effects plants when sprayed on foliage, so it won't accumulate in the ground. I've heard that even a cup of clay will deactivate a whole large tank of the stuff. Not that it's harmless but it's not as bad as people seem to think. I believe it has a place in modern industrial agriculture.
The ionic exchange capacity of high clay soils is completely different from sandy loam, so of course they are both going to respond differently. Originally it was also suggested that glyphosate (the generic active ingredient in Round-Up that you'll see stacked in giant piles in ag store end caps like Southern States, etc.) would quickly photo-degrade... but it don't. It is and always has been known to be a bio-accumulator, meaning that it not only persists in the soils, but in your body as well. This last bit is pretty common sense if ya think about it since Monsanto started selling this shit as the latest and greatest BECAUSE it persisted, but then they tell the FDA that it doesn't (not that it mattered since Monsanto has more of its employees working in the FDA than anyone).

Now that their original patent has expired and Monsanto has to compete with all of the generic makers they've finally come clean (sort of) and are now marketing their poison as if its persistence is some kind of good thing. Truly a product for retards:
Roundup-Max-Control-365-Kill and Prevent Weeds-Roundup

The problem with shit like this and 2-4D, insecticides, etc. is that they are approved by an FDA that is owned and operated by the very pharmaceutical, food additive, and chemical companies that make this shit. Recently Monsanto got wise to the fact that their name is shit with consumers, so they partner with the German chemical/pharma maker Bayer to market their own pharmaceutical products, realizing that folks would probably not respond well to knowing that their favorite statin drug was made by the people that brung ya Agent Orange, DDT, PCB's, and hydrolized fats. What a coincidence that the companies making the poisons are also in the business of selling cures (or rather drugs that keep you alive after exposure to their poison, as long as you take it for the rest of your life).

The biggest fraud where this shit is concerned is that the there is a catalytic reaction that takes place as a critical part of the manufacturing process, and should that reaction be improperly monitored or managed, and the temperatures allowed to waver even slightly, a vary dangerous by-product called PCB's. Worse yet sloppy manufacturing controls can also directly form dioxin, which is not a probable carcinogen (like PCB's), but an 'A' number one way to cause cancers. And the fun doesn't stop there. PCB's are notoriously long lived and difficult to oxidize or break down (they have a half life of something like 15 years) AND if subjected to high thermal inputs it will produce dioxins even years after leaving the factory. High thermal inputs could be something as seemingly harmless as composting or burning plants that have the compounds present from having been previously sprayed with Round-Up, et al. All very bad shit. A few years ago there was a large compost and "organic" soil processor that was bagging millions of pounds of shit for sale at the box stores on the east coast, and they had a little contamination issue with a bad batch of Round-Up. Turns out they were shipping dioxin contaminated soils and soil amendments all over the country. Several municipal solid waste processors that composted yard waste have been co0ntinually running into the same thing. Both have also encountered instances where their products not only were contaminated with glyphosate and/or 2-4D, but that it was present in high enough concentrations that their soils and compost would actually kill most anything planted in it.
... but not to worry. Monsanto and their ilk always provide the FDA with cover in the form of "science" that they fund, that proves beyond any shadow of any doubt that their shit is perfectly safe.

My ultimate test is simple. Tell someone who's a fan of this shit to drink a glass of it for you. So far not even the Monsanto reps will do this for me, although they continue to insist that it's all perfectly safe.
The strongest thing my plants and fields might see is vinegar, and while it may not taste so good to drink a glass of, it sure as fuck won't make animals develop as hermaphrodites (what these and other endocrine disruptors have done to the native Black Bass population of the lower Potomac, which ironically enough flows right past Washington, D.C.).


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If it boosts agricultural yields by nearly 30x then its hard to argue against. However that number likely reflects a whole lot more changes than just round up (in particular genetically modified crops).

Sage I don't know about all of Canada, but it is banned in Ontario, for personal use anyways, and I believe agricultural too but I don't know for sure.
Funny shit... the manufacturers claims that is. The main point of why glyphosates and 2-4D have been pushed into such a wide global market is because of the seeds that are a part of the package. As soon as the U.S. Patent office fell for Monsanto's crap and gave them permission to patent life forms the game was lost. Since then the chem giants have bought up nearly all of the seed companies so that they can own everything, and so that they can use patent law to force people to buy their GMO shit. One of the primary elements of their gene stacking mutations are terminator genes and glyphosate or 2-4D tolerance genes. These make certain that the plant will survive high concentrations of the defoliant applications AND will produce a sterile seed that cannot be harvested and saved for re-use, thereby forcing its users to not only buy all of their chemicals from them, but also to keep having to buy new seed every year. The best part of this scam is that as the scientists try and cram more and more of these stacked genes into the plant DNA they later discovered (their entire existence is one long chain of unbroken unintended consequences that we all end up paying for both monetarily and health wise) that they were encountering unintended mutations and "leakage"

The "leakage" meant that as they tried to gene blast or use virus carriers to alter DNA, they also fucked some other shit up at the same time. Some existing favorable traits mysteriously fell away (like maybe taste, texture, and/or drought or pest insect resistance). And as if that wasn't bad enough (although the manufacturers ignored this for years because their primary goal was just to make a plant DNA that helped sell more chemicals, not grow better food) they have also recently found that the plants they fucked with are also producing some scary compounds that they never intended and never thought to look out for (just like the PCB's and dioxin in their Round-up and 2-4D). One of the scariest was the recent discovery that a widely grown (globally that is) GMO corn was producing an antibiotic called tetracycline, one of the most previously over prescribed antibiotics on the planet.

This of course means that anybody that eats shit with the high fructose corn syrup that is the primary product derived from this particular strain, will also be consuming low dose quantities of the antibiotics. Not to worry though right... since high fructose corn syrup is only in every fast food and processed food in the world today, 'cuz sweet sells, and sweet makes people wanna eat more of whatever it's in, and lord knows we aren't seeing too many new cases of diabetes (something like 55% of all Americans are projected to have developed the disease by 2020). These low dose applications are perfect for helping to develop resistant bacterial strains that when later they become a health threat, they will laugh at the normal treatment protocols. The other distressing fact is that this ubiquitous persistence of antibiotics also causes the same type of effect that the endocrine disruptors themselves also cause (remember the PCB's and dioxin again).

This leads to your body's immune system being constantly under stress to respond to all of these foreign invaders and irritants. The effect of that is that when we need it, the system is simply wore the fuck out, 'cuz your body can only handle but so much, and as organisms go, we just don't evolve fast enough to be able to adapt physiologically to this high fat, high sugar, antibiotic and endocrine disruptor laden, shit diet that has been created and marketed to us. This is precisely why we have seen such a huge increase in the incidence of things such as allergies and auto-immune deficiency disease over the last couple of decades. Up until the post war 50's diet we were never subjected to this level of shit in our food, so the current Boomers and beyond are the lab rats that are living the dream of better diet through more chemicals.
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Old 04-28-2015, 10:39 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Terminator genes were patented but never sold commercially.

the American Diabetic Association said that in 2012 9.3% of Americans had diabetes, including undiagnosed, so 45% of the population is gonna develope it between 2012 and 2020?

Honestly do you think if you just post enough text no one will fact check you?
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Old 04-29-2015, 04:54 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Terminator genes were patented but never sold commercially.
Wikipedia is not the ultimate arbiter that you might want to believe kitch, and a lot has happened since the U.N. Convention on Bio-Diversity reaffirmed its moratorium on Terminator genes in 2006 (the most recent information mentioned in your source I'm guessing).

June 1, 2007, Monsanto completed its acquisition of Delta & Pine Land (the commercial benefactor of the tax payer funded R&D.) for $1.5 billion (seems like a lot of dough for something that you don't intend to use don't ya think?).
D&PL held three patents on GURTs and had long vowed to commercialize Terminator, targeting rice, wheat and soy in particular. Monsanto has been actively involved in acquiring D&PL since 1998, and would have were it not for word getting out about their intentions, which in turn led to a tremendous global push back and an eventual collapse of the deal... but Monsanto was not to be denied

A few pertinent excerpts from Monsanto press releases specific to the subject of GURTs:

"We are making a public commitment not to commercialize sterile seed technologies, such as the one dubbed ‘Terminator.’" - letter from then Monsanto CEO to the Rockefeller Foundation President following the global pressures exerted on the foundation and Monsanto during the 1998 D&PL initial acquisition debacle (Monsanto receives many sheckels from foundations as well as tax payer grants to fund their R&D, hence the interest in making nice with the tit).

And then there's the 2005 "clarification" of their ethics(?) with the added verbiage, "but Monsanto people constantly reevaluate this stance as technology develops." Sounds like Bill Clinton asking for a definition of the word "is".

And again in 2007, following the finalization of the D&PL acquisition, "we do not rule out their future development"

D&PL, and now Monsanto by extension via its acquisition, is THE largest cotton seed producer in the world.

Regarding Monsanto's ethics, tendency to lie, and past record of doing whatever nefarious shit is necessary to protect their monopoly and profits, Monsanto has continued to maintain that they "do not hold patents on Terminator", they were granted this... thing, which looks suspiciously to the rest of the world like a fucking patent:

published under the Patent Cooperation Treaty, WO97/44465 “Method for Controlling Seed Germinator Using Soybean ACYL COA Oxidase Sequences.”
The 91-page patent, published in November 1997, details the company’s research on genetic seed sterilization and offers evidence of the company’s intention to apply for patents in patent offices worldwide.

On October 11, 2005 The Canadian Patent Office granted a patent to Delta & Pine Land and again, the Monsanto acquisition finalized in 2007, and yes it included all intellectual properties, patents, trademarks and rights, but why would Monsanto ever lie?
Oops, almost forgot, they were also awarded the same patents that aren't really patents(?) in the EU. Why do ya suppose they went through all of that trouble and expense anyway? Yeah... I'm sure it's nuthin'.

I suppose another question might be so what if they did lie? The context of their lies have already been couched in enough legalese and bullshit that they are meaningless and would sustain no real legal challenge. Companies lie all of the time and the consequences are typically of little or no real substance. Meanwhile they do whatever they must to protect their shareholders' interests and make the most of every penny that they invest, and that I would imagine probably includes the 150,000,000,000 pennies that they invested in acquiring D&PL.

... and FWIW, nobody cares what the fuck the U.N. says, decrees, or declares, least of all the U.S. or the corporations that own it. Get real! There are very good reasons that these companies lie and obfuscate to hide their true intentions, and Wikipedia and their own websites are probably the last places that you'll ever find the truth. They also fund numerous organizations and shells that generate reams of bullshit to try and help hide their impact and subterfuge, but you go right ahead and believe what you want and sleep the happy sleep. (fracking and pharmaceutical trials would be another prime example of this kind of manipulated "science" meets Public Relations)

Here's some more of the non-existent Terminator seeds that don't get made commercially available: Bayer Crop Science and Pioneer Hi-Bred (DuPont) - have "terminator seeds" that can be legally grown in the U.S., the terminator seeds are for just two crops - corn and canola, and Christ only knows we don't grow any corn or canola in the U.S., right? Most growers don't post seed brands on their fields anymore, but where you do see them DuPont's Terminator equipped corn is certainly ubiquitous. Oh... and the best news of all is that DuPont has also developed a new male sterile corn that they've crossed into their non-GMO products, so they've essentially accomplished the same end result in a fashion that will allow them to impart the Terminator gene results in seed that meets OMRI and Organic certification "standards". What a hoot!
That, BTW, is just some of the U.S specific stuff.

By latest estimates Monsanto, DuPont, and Syngenta, control about half of the global seed market, and that is growing every year thanks to their aggressive pursuit of trade agreement treaty protections for their patents, and the use of threats of legal action against treaty co-signors that try to resist allowing their GMO products into their countries (eg., Canada, where one of their trade or ag ministers famously pronounced that "not over his dead body" would Monsanto's GMO's be allowed in Canada - of course he's still alive and Monsanto used the threat of a law suit to successfully leverage their access).

Most of the Third World has absolutely no chance of withstanding any of these big corporations' legal threats. Consider their success in bullying Canada. Now what chance do ya suppose Sri Lanka, Mexico, or some Sub-Saharan African or South or Central American country would stand? Not much I'll warrant, and that's not even taking into consideration the facts of life and corruption that allow an even simpler access for them.

Think what ya want about the long windedness of my rants, I don't accept the first tidbit of information I run across as gospel, but where Monsanto in particular is concerned I'm kinda baffled why anyone would desire to err on their behalf? You a shareholder or sumthin'?



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the American Diabetic Association said that in 2012 9.3% of Americans had diabetes, including undiagnosed, so 45% of the population is gonna develope it between 2012 and 2020?

Honestly do you think if you just post enough text no one will fact check you?
Already commented on your fact checking, but the variance in statistics and studies from ADA, CDC, NHIS, NWHIC, NIDDK, et al, is quite impressive. Wkipedia is again, a little thin here. Thresholds of determining factors vary, as do sample sizes and methodologies, age of studies and variances in extrapolating trends, all of course further impacted by continuing devolution of our food quality and the further integration of such high quality crap as GMO's, high fructose corn syrup, preservatives, residues, and sundry other thousands of incompletely tested and understood "FDA approved" food additives. I also have had the distinct pleasure/opportunity to have worked with and been friends with people that worked for the CDC, FDA, NIH, et al, from which I have gathered a plethora of opinions and first hand accounts of studies, statistics, and trends, upon which I have based my own resultant opinions. There are significant differences for example between rates of prevalence and rates of incidence, but the two are frequently misused, misquoted, and generally misunderstood.

Are you suggesting that the real issue is somehow contained in a dissection of statistical deviations, and not that we have allowed ourselves to be duped into shitty health through chemical living. None of these groups can even agree on the numbers of undiagnosed, what constitutes "pre-diabetic" and at what point those cases are expected to turn full blown type I or II - not that they even can, as well as the associated impact and relationships to things like pancreatic disease and the way in which complications from diabetes effect the classification of patient/victims included in the medical statistics.

Pick whatever numbers make you feel better, how's that? Now please try and explain what you point might have been.


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Old 04-29-2015, 06:11 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Are these the terminator genes you're talking about?
http://www.cera-gmc.org/GmCropDataba...8,%20680/print

It looks to me like the genes aren't what most people would describe as terminators since they don't actively effect the seeds but rather the pollen production capabilities of the plant. Male infertile corn has been grown commercially since the 1950s. Can you give hard links to anything more damning? Honestly I wouldn't give you so much shit if you EVER bothered to cite sources. As it stands you make all kinds of outrageous claims and only have a seemingly endless supply of textwalls fully of scary adjectives and hypebole to back it up. I tried pretty hard and couldn't find any examples of female infertile crops which is what I think most people would classify as "terminator genes" This stuff you could take a handful of normal corn pollen and toss it on the field and get viable seeds.

As for the diabetes thing you quoted a number about 500% larger than the official numbers indicate. Official numbers that depend on making it seem scary and endemic to receive the maximum amount of funding. Or is it all a big conspiracy to make us think that less than half of us have diabetes so they can keep selling us evil male infertile corn sugar?
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