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Old 06-02-2015, 11:10 AM   #41 (permalink)
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IMO, i think the pluralistic coalitions are less efficient.

I kinda like that we are forced to think/narrow down/consolidate our collective viewpoints into something that we as a nation decide.

The problem to me is all the gerrymandering, financial loopholes, and the simply uneducated basing their opinions off campaign propaganda.
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Old 06-02-2015, 12:35 PM   #42 (permalink)
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I think it helps move things forward faster at times,
because the coalition has to drop some of it's more extreme points,
in favour of a middle ground.


Read: The far wingers aren't stalling out the process.


In some ways is has more potential for consensus gov't,
instead of the 'winner or loser' on an issue.

And sometimes that might be a little slower, I can agree....

But I think it gives folks some time to think before the REact.



"Narrowing it down", imo, is how we get the folks who are voting for Kerry,
because they aren't voting for Bush, kind of scenarios.
And I think that is sort of a copout, and a bottom of the barrel kind of choice.....
Especially on the POTUS level.
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Old 06-02-2015, 01:43 PM   #43 (permalink)
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I'll vote for the one that says America isn't exceptional. And says he/she will support the troops buy bringing them ALL home. And stops all foreign aid other than food products and spends every cent collected from Americans on Americans. Oh, and the pot thing. So I probably won't vote.
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Old 06-02-2015, 01:58 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sage Tree View Post
Will this be the election the rest of America realizes having only two parties is crap,
and we finally go to a parliamentary like system w/ coalition gov'ts made of many parties?


Probably not.
I don't think parliamentary democracies are inherently better.

In fact I think the american system of democracy is fantastic, much more direct democracy and liberty than the Canadian parliamentary system, but its been dramatically corrupted. Take the money out of american democracy, break up the media monopolies, and see it flourish.

Both however could use electoral reform to eliminate the first past the post voting system.
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Old 06-02-2015, 02:00 PM   #45 (permalink)
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It's the nature of modern elections that most people vote against their candidate's opponent rather than voting for their candidate. I think it'll be interesting to see what happens when the aging hippies become the majority of the AARP, since it's easily the largest voter bloc in the country. I hope that they'll be able to see past the hypocritical kind of faux liberalism that most baby boomers seem to subscribe to. For all the hippie babble about the environment and equality espoused by the boomers they sure have managed to accelerate ecological destruction and wage gaps.
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Old 06-02-2015, 03:21 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sage Tree View Post
I think it helps move things forward faster at times,
because the coalition has to drop some of it's more extreme points,
in favour of a middle ground.


Read: The far wingers aren't stalling out the process.


In some ways is has more potential for consensus gov't,
instead of the 'winner or loser' on an issue.

And sometimes that might be a little slower, I can agree....

But I think it gives folks some time to think before the REact.



"Narrowing it down", imo, is how we get the folks who are voting for Kerry,
because they aren't voting for Bush, kind of scenarios.
And I think that is sort of a copout, and a bottom of the barrel kind of choice.....
Especially on the POTUS level.
Middle Ground still doesn't get you innovative, either. In spite of the massive amounts of spending going towards the military, the US's science R&D is a still massive compared to the rest of the globe.

POTUS these days seems to be more of an international relations gig than anything else. I mean, Obama lifting Cuba's embargo was a curveball, wasn't it?

It's Congress and local/state governments at midterm elections that no one gives a shit about except the unemployable with nothing better to do, such as the elderly and the crazy, and the national campaigns that target those specific demographic constituents at specific districts because due to insane gerrymandering, many people's votes statistically are much more valuable than others.

Like Stoneric on a basic front not voting really doesn't matter because Wisconsin[?] already has crazy voting tendencies and only has ten electoral votes compared to say, my Illinois' 22 votes. Since both our states contribute all our votes to the majority instead of dividing based on voting percentage, my vote is worth at least 2.2 Stoneric's.
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Old 06-02-2015, 04:27 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Like Stoneric on a basic front not voting really doesn't matter because Wisconsin[?] already has crazy voting tendencies and only has ten electoral votes compared to say, my Illinois' 22 votes. Since both our states contribute all our votes to the majority instead of dividing based on voting percentage, my vote is worth at least 2.2 Stoneric's.
I don't live in Wisconsin and I do plan on voting. You missed my humor attempt.
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Old 06-02-2015, 04:30 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Doesn't matter, substitute Stoneric for any Wisconsinite.

California has 55 electoral votes, so Rev is worth 2.5 me's.
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Old 06-02-2015, 04:37 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Doesn't matter, substitute Stoneric for any Wisconsinite.

California has 55 electoral votes, so Rev is worth 2.5 me's.
How do you figure? There's also many more votes cast in California than Indiana. I'd say the disproportionate votes are the smaller states senators. Vermont for example has one senator for every 300k people where as California it's close to one for every 20MILLION, meaning a Vermont senate vote is worth 60 California votes.
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Old 06-02-2015, 04:47 PM   #50 (permalink)
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I was talking about Federal elections, not Congressional ones. Smaller states rule the Senate, but the House of Reps and electoral college for Presidency are most influenced by the bigger states.

Now you could do what the GOP did for Bush's 2nd election and bank on accumulating enough smaller red state electoral votes to still pull a majority.
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Old 06-02-2015, 07:21 PM   #51 (permalink)
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If we could just cut psychotic spending I wouldn't give a damn of the top had tax cuts or whatever.
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Old 06-02-2015, 07:46 PM   #52 (permalink)
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The electoral college needs reform, but consider that a smaller jurisdiction may have fewer citizens per representative, but also do a disproportionate amount of say, farming. Just as an example.

If every representative represented the same number of voters, rural areas which provide important natural resource industries would likely loose money, which would be a loss for all citizens if those resources fueled the economy or fed the people.

This may be more pertinent in a country like Canada, but its a thought to consider, the USA is not so different.
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Old 06-03-2015, 04:14 PM   #53 (permalink)
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Every elector does represent the same number of people. What Komp is saying is that because each state has a block of votes, based on population, but within each state, it's a winner take all situation.

So, if CAs vote is, say, 49% to 51%, then the 51% gets ALL 55 electoral votes, which is why a person can win an election, without actually having the most votes.

The whole electoral college business has totally outlived it's usefulness. Especially in these days of the computers and the internet.

One person should equal one vote.
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Old 06-03-2015, 04:37 PM   #54 (permalink)
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Democracy in the information age is really terrifying to me to be honest. There probably already have been cases of elections being swayed by faulty or malicious software, and there will continue to be more and more until we have a completely standardized, monitored and highly regulated system to tally computerized votes. In the mean time elections WILL be stolen.
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Old 06-03-2015, 05:49 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Every elector does represent the same number of people. What Komp is saying is that because each state has a block of votes, based on population, but within each state, it's a winner take all situation.

So, if CAs vote is, say, 49% to 51%, then the 51% gets ALL 55 electoral votes, which is why a person can win an election, without actually having the most votes.

The whole electoral college business has totally outlived it's usefulness. Especially in these days of the computers and the internet.

One person should equal one vote.
So the electoral college is first past the post within each state, on top of its other problems? I already denounced first past the post (which is what you describe with 49 vs. 51) system. ...your right, what I said doesn't apply... I still think its interesting to consider.


...Perhaps I'm missing something... If each electoral district represents an equal amount of people, and a state with a total of ten electoral votes gets 6/10 democrats and all ten then go democrat, each democrats vote becomes valued at 1.667 votes (this is likely where my misunderstanding is, if I'm wrong). If a state has twenty electoral votes and 12 of them go republican, then each republicans vote is still worth 1.667 votes. Is it not? (With the same situation applying equally to every individuals vote within each district/riding). Meaning the only flaw is first past the post, or winner takes all elections, not disproportionate value of votes based on state.

What I'm seeing is that first past the post distorts the value of an individuals vote, but it distorts it equally regardless of the number of voters. ...I've had a few drinks...
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Old 06-04-2015, 03:55 AM   #56 (permalink)
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Old 06-04-2015, 08:40 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Yea, i'm not following your math, but i'll make myself a little more clear.

MN has it right. Whatever the Pub/Dem split is, doesn't factor into the value of the vote. The voter value is calculated on the chunk of electoral votes after the results are in, regardless of who actually wins it.

Another layer of complexity is the mapping of the districts, aka gerrymandering. Even though one electoral vote is for a certain total population size, the demographics as to where the boundaries lie are up to Congress itself. Example, a district could split city neighborhoods by economic levels. So, the GOP being the primary spearhead when it comes to advantageous mapping has remapped to further ensure that it gets the votes it wants. Here are some examples of crazy mapping to optimize demographics:

North Carolina 12th:



Maryland 3rd:



Florida 5th:



Illinois 4th:



etc, etc...


This allows a party to hold a few more voting/influential seats than would be with a straight opinion vote.


Interestingly, the whole design for the electoral college was to stop Mob Rule, aka preventing the 51% from oppressing the 49%.

Quote:
The reason that the Constitution calls for this extra layer, rather than just providing for the direct election of the president, is that most of the nation’s founders were actually rather afraid of democracy. James Madison worried about what he called "factions," which he defined as groups of citizens who have a common interest in some proposal that would either violate the rights of other citizens or would harm the nation as a whole. Madison’s fear – which Alexis de Tocqueville later dubbed "the tyranny of the majority" – was that a faction could grow to encompass more than 50 percent of the population, at which point it could "sacrifice to its ruling passion or interest both the public good and the rights of other citizens." Madison has a solution for tyranny of the majority: "A republic, by which I mean a government in which the scheme of representation takes place, opens a different prospect, and promises the cure for which we are seeking."
As Alexander Hamilton writes in "The Federalist Papers," the Constitution is designed to ensure "that the office of President will never fall to the lot of any man who is not in an eminent degree endowed with the requisite qualifications." The point of the Electoral College is to preserve "the sense of the people," while at the same time ensuring that a president is chosen "by men most capable of analyzing the qualities adapted to the station, and acting under circumstances favorable to deliberation, and to a judicious combination of all the reasons and inducements which were proper to govern their choice."
In modern practice, the Electoral College is mostly a formality. Most electors are loyal members of the party that has selected them, and in 26 states, plus Washington, D.C., electors are bound by laws or party pledges to vote in accord with the popular vote. Although an elector could, in principle, change his or her vote (and a few actually have over the years), doing so is rare.
As the 2000 election reminded us, the Electoral College does make it possible for a candidate to win the popular vote and still not become president. But that is less a product of the Electoral College and more a product of the way states apportion electors. In every state but Maine and Nebraska, electors are awarded on a winner-take-all basis. So if a candidate wins a state by even a narrow margin, he or she wins all of the state’s electoral votes. The winner-take-all system is not federally mandated; states are free to allocate their electoral votes as they wish.
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Old 06-04-2015, 08:51 AM   #58 (permalink)
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Fun fact. I'm from the original gerrymander:
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Old 06-04-2015, 04:03 PM   #59 (permalink)
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I understand gerrymandering, as it happens here too, but I still don't understand how a state with a higher population having more electoral college votes makes an individuals vote worth more. ?

I'm inclined to believe you, because I understand the way presidential candidates cater to certain states during elections, but I don't see how the votes hold different value yet.
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Old 06-04-2015, 04:38 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Okay I think I got it...

If you live in a state with 10 districts and 9 of them vote democrat, a landslide, then the democrats get 10 votes. But if you live in a state with 30 districts, and 16 of them vote republican, then 14 democrat voting districts are turned republican. Meaning even though 23 districts in the two states have voted democrat, the final tally is 10 D and 30 R.

And further distorted because the same scenario could play out in each individual district... but thats just how first past the post works in general.

It would make much more sense and be much more close to equal value votes for everyone if states didn't all vote together.
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